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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
Prime Zo would be the best center in the L and a MVP candidate.
Zo had a jumper that you couldn't ignore. He was no D-Rob or Ewing, but it was good enough that he could drag you out of the zone and then use the triple-threat situation, since he wasn't immobile either.
His D was at worst on Howards level. Howard got an edge in rebounding, that's it.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=AlonzoGOAT]You're a ****ing retard so basically he was at MJ level leadership? How is that not a good thing?[/QUOTE]
When Michael Jordan got angry he wasn't taken out of games. When you got Alonzo Mourning angry you could completely take him out of games like the Bulls did.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=FatComputerNerd]Wrong.
Zo was not mechanical at all. He was graceful with good footwork, and MUCH more athletic than Dwight is.[/QUOTE]
Yeah he was mechanical. And no, "MUCH more" athletic? Are you kidding me? You either don't think that Dwight's athletic or think that Alonzo is the most athletic player to ever play the game.
Give me a break. A bunch of youtube videos doesn't teach you about a player.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
Classic example of prior players getting overrated when compared to current players.
Dwight will get the respect eventually. He'll get his fair due being on a national and global team like the Lakers.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
'Zo was a tougher competitor, and he had the Perkins scowl going. So I go with 'Zo.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
can't believe all those teenagers :facepalm
Howard never played with a PF, that's why his rebounds numbers are high.When Shaq played without Grant, he used to average more rebounds, as well as Robinson who saw his rebounding average down when he played with Rodman and up when he left.
Like Ewing who played his entire career with very good PF, Mourning played alongside nice rebounders who where LJ and then Brown.
don't stay focus on numbers please...we will see how Howard will play with Gasol and the Lakers if he can maintain his scoring and go for 14 rebound per game...
People really need to watch mid 90's basketball before dropping bullshit. as Kblaze said, Mourning came into the league with a good jumpshot and very nice move facing the basket. plus, he wasn't as lucky as Dwight meeting the legendary centers of the last 6 years.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
Dwight but Zo is the better person.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=wang4three]Yeah he was mechanical. And no, "MUCH more" athletic? Are you kidding me? You either don't think that Dwight's athletic or think that Alonzo is the most athletic player to ever play the game.
Give me a break. A bunch of youtube videos doesn't teach you about a player.[/QUOTE]
You are probably too young to have seen 'Zo in his prime, or you didn't watch the vid of him I posted.
He was damn near as graceful as a ballerina, and was able to handle the ball and take people off the dribble.
Dwight is simply catch and dunk. He has far fewer post moves and far inferior athleticism or quickness than prime 'Zo did.
This is not debatable, and I expect any pro' bball analyst would agree with me.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=FatComputerNerd]You are probably too young to have seen 'Zo in his prime, or you didn't watch the vid of him I posted.
He was damn near as graceful as a ballerina, and was able to handle the ball and take people off the dribble.
[B]Dwight is simply catch and dunk.[/B] He has far fewer post moves and far inferior athleticism or quickness than prime 'Zo did, and this is not debatable.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you have seen Dwight for the past 3 years.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
Never mind the fact that 'Zo could also shoot the rock from the perimeter, and was also a better defender.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=Carbine]I don't think you have seen Dwight for the past 3 years.[/QUOTE]
Dwight doesn't take people off the dribble or nail 18 footers with regularity.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=FatComputerNerd]Never mind the fact that 'Zo could also shoot the rock from the perimeter, and was also a better defender.[/QUOTE]
Zo can shoot 3s?
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=franchiez]Zo can shoot 3s?[/QUOTE]
NBA Three-Point field goal arc radius: 23 feet 9 inches. I said 18 feet. My mistake on using the word perimeter.
But yea, he actually could here and there.
He would hit 15-18 footers w/ regularity though...often after taking his defender off the dribble.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=FatComputerNerd]NBA Three-Point field goal arc radius: 23 feet 9 inches. I said 18 feet. My mistake on using the word perimeter.
But yea, he actually could here and there.
He would hit 15-18 footers w/ regularity though...often after taking his defender off the dribble.[/QUOTE]
Haha, ok :cheers:
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=Carbine]I don't think you have seen Dwight for the past 3 years.[/QUOTE]
I know he has improved his post game, but 'Zo had far better footwork, and higher IQ, which is a factor.
'Zo was like a mini Hakeem in the post, and with his strength and athleticism there was no stopping him.
Howard on the other hand can be stopped.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=Carbine]Classic example of prior players getting overrated when compared to current players.
Dwight will get the respect eventually. He'll get his fair due being on a national and global team like the Lakers.[/QUOTE]
No, centers from the 90s are clearly better than the ones today, I don't see how it's overrating Zo to say he's better than Dwight. Their numbers are comparable even though Zo played against much better centers on a more consistent basis.
Who is the best center Dwight has played against, Yao?
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
You make it seem like Zo was playin Hakeem every night. There were just as many bums in the league then as there are now, the exception being that there were 4 or 5 superstar C's.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=FatComputerNerd]I know he has improved his post game, but 'Zo had far better footwork, and higher IQ, which is a factor.
'Zo was like a mini Hakeem in the post, and with his strength and athleticism there was no stopping him.
Howard on the other hand can be stopped.[/QUOTE]
a mini hakeem? zo struggled immensely with double teams in his hornets days. his footwork and post game is nowhere near dream's. it just wasn't that refined. i also don't think many are going to argue that zo was more athletic than dwight.
he wasn't even the clear cut #1 option on that team with larry johnson around and that team failed to make it deep into the playoffs or have a top 5 defense.
in miami, hardaway was the #1 option until about 99-00. this is around the time that zo was getting more comfortable in the post and dealing with doubles much better. unfortunately, not long after is when his kidney issues arose
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=eliteballer]You make it seem like Zo was playin Hakeem every night. There were just as many bums in the league then as there are now, the exception being that there were 4 or 5 superstar C's.[/QUOTE]
Shaq/Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing
Then you had -
Rony Seikaly, Dino Radja, Elden Campbell, Vlade Divac, Brad Daughtery, Kevin Duckworth, Dikembe Mutumbo, Rik Smits and Kevin Willis.
He saw more 15-20ppg centers in one season than Dwight has seen in his career.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
First off, those guys all NEVER simultaneously averaged "15-20 ppg" in the same season, so you're full of it on that one. Second:
[QUOTE]Lets take a random look, guys who were worth a damn strictly off the stat sheet
95
Shaq
Hakeem
Drob
Ewing
Zo
Mutombo
Seikaly
Divac
Willis
Bradley
Polynice
Smits
Benjamin( )
Muresan
Montross( )
O Miller( )
2012
Dwight
Horford
Monroe
Lopez
Gortat
A Jefferson
Nene
M Gasol
Noah
Kaman
Bynum
Pekovic
McGee
D Jordan
Duncan
Hibbert
Chandler
Bogut
Cousins
Thats just about all of the guys who are mostly playing center who are worth a damn on the stat sheet. You take out the top 5 guys, and there is not a hell of a lot of difference, let alone night and day between depth and quality. You just got stiffs left on both ends. There's always been stiffs manning the majority of the center(starting and backup) spots in the league.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]I mean you want to talk about 93
Atlanta - Willis legit
Philly - laughable
Boston - parish legit
New Jersey - laughable
Cleveland - Daugherty - star
Detroit - laughable
Clips - laughable
Seattle - laughable
NY - Ewing star
Chicago - laughable
Orlando - Star
San antonio - star
Minnesota - laughable
Milwaukee - laughable
Washington - legit for 49 games
Portland - laughable
Utah - Laughable
Phoenix - laughable
Indiana - Smits, 14/5. between laughable and legit
Denver - legit
Charlotte - star
Dallas - between legit and laughable
Sac - laughable
Houston - Star
Lakers - Divac, legit
Miami - Siekaly - legit
Golden State -laughable
So in a league of 27 teams, you've got half the league that is laughable.[/QUOTE]
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=franchiez]Zo can shoot 3s?[/QUOTE]
don't remember his 3 3pts shots in the 4th QT of G1 of 1995 first round against the Bulls ?
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
An argument could be made that Dwight's lack of comp at the center position actually hurts his game. He doesn't have to be focused night in and night out to know he's going to likely dominate his opposition for that night.
Look at Dwight's stats vs. Duncan & Shaq back when Dwight was still a baby and Duncan was just exiting his prime and Shaq as well. He did work playing against those guys....and they're two of the top 10 players ever.
Plus the rules and pace of the game back then would've really helped out Dwight. Keep that in mind when comparing numbers cross era.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=eliteballer]First off, those guys all NEVER simultaneously averaged "15-20 ppg" in the same season, so you're full of it on that one. Second:[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
So, you have to cherry pick years in order to come up with a halfway decent argument? And yeah, those guys did average 15-20ppg in the same season, unless you want to magically just forget the top 4 guys he had to play against in Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing/Drob.
A "bum" like Dino Radja averaged 19.7ppg 9.8rpg in 95-96, Rik Smits that same year put up 18.5ppg, how many centers this year put up those numbers. These guys would be getting max contracts today :roll:
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Why are people talking about Zo's leadership? What Alonzo Mourning was known for, for much of his career was losing his temper and blowing a gasket. I don't call that leadership.[/QUOTE]
Zo and Shaq were the vocal leaders of the Miami Heat team that won in 06. It was in a documentary when they won the championship and Wade talks about it.
To main topic:
Zo is more polish to start off with. I believe he is also better defensively. He could go inside and out. He could make jumpers, but he wasn't like Ewing good.
Howard hasn't reached his peak yet, and he could get better. He already improved on his offensive game. He is a better finisher.
Both are not outstanding offensively though, I think that Mourning do bring intangibles, good as well as bad ones. You can't go wrong with either one.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=FatComputerNerd]You are probably too young to have seen 'Zo in his prime, or you didn't watch the vid of him I posted.
He was damn near as graceful as a ballerina, and was able to handle the ball and take people off the dribble.
Dwight is simply catch and dunk. He has far fewer post moves and far inferior athleticism or quickness than prime 'Zo did.
This is not debatable, and I expect any pro' bball analyst would agree with me.[/QUOTE]
I don't sit around judging talent off of youtube highlights. I watched actual games. When they happened. I was plenty around when Zo was in his prime. You are highly overrating him to an unnerving degree.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
I would take Zo but mainly because he is a more balanced player.
Zo is obviously the better offensive player. There is no ifs or buts about it.
Defensively, Zo was a beast but had a tendency to get into foul trouble too often. Dwight gets into foul trouble as well but I feel like refs have some vendetta out against him. Zo was just eager to swat everything in sight, which he was very good at as he had exceptional timing, but it got him in trouble. The defensive anchor needs to be in the game to be effective. IMO Dwight is the more disciplined defender. His superior athleticism also allows him to be more mobile around the paint.
But the discrepancy between the two on defense isn't nearly as wide as it is on offense which is why I'd take Zo.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=wang4three]I don't sit around judging talent off of youtube highlights. I watched actual games. When they happened. I was plenty around when Zo was in his prime. You are highly overrating him to an unnerving degree.[/QUOTE]
This.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Which big man would you rather build around in your prime? This debate is a lot closer than people think. Even for superstar, Dwight is very underrated.[/QUOTE]
Give me Zo. He came into the league averaging 21 ppg , 10 rpg and 3.5 bpg as a rookie.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]Give me Zo. He came into the league averaging 21 ppg , 10 rpg and 3.5 bpg as a rookie.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing Derrick Coleman > Kevin Garnett since we are only comparing each player's rookie seasons.
Dwight is better and only Dwight haters or people blinded by nostalgia disagree
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]I'm guessing Derrick Coleman > Kevin Garnett since we are only comparing each player's rookie seasons.
Dwight is better and only Dwight haters or people blinded by nostalgia disagree[/QUOTE]
We aren't talking about Derrick Coleman or KG here.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYmpPqJLX_Y&feature=related[/url]
Dwight would get murdered by prime Zo.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
Zo
At least he wasn't dumber than a rock like Dwight.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
Pretty similar players. I'd take Dwight for longevity. Well, um, until he hurt his back and might be out until Christmas.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=BoutPractice]Zo used to be one of my favorite players, while I am mostly indifferent to Howard, but I would say Howard is in the tier just above him.
He's closer to a Pat Ewing than to Alonzo Mourning, and when it's all said and done might be regarded as the Moses of his era (not talking about style of play here, just tiers).
In addition to having led an average team to the NBA Finals at a young age, Dwight is a more dominant presence on the court: not only does he anchor your defense (and it's not just about accumulating blocked shots) but he commands double teams on offense. He's also a better rebounder.
Some will argue that Zo played against better competition (and it's true that so far Dwight has had no one in his conference and only Yao, Gasol and Bynum in the opposing conference), but let's not forget that his career coincided with Shaq who is often criticized for dominating inferior centers.
Even though he played in the same decade, he's not from the same generation as Hakeem, DRob and Ewing - several of his prime years occurred when those were old and washed up.[/QUOTE]
Great post.
Also the "better centers" argument completely ignores that that the majority of games weren't played vs a star center and that Zo really struggled in some series that the opposing team had a role player at center. Or that star centers often aren't always guarding other star centers and when they do, often receive help so they can avoid foul trouble often not making it tougher to score against a guy who also has to average 20+ ppg than it vs a guy whose primary job is to stop the opposing center.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
btw people romanticizing the state of 90s big men need to take of their rose colored nostalgia glasses. There was about a 3-4 year period where you can say big men were ruling the league, 1992-93 till 1994-1995 and maybe you can even add 1995-1996 but before/after was kind of bleak. Still better than today's league, but not quite the same because it was never deep. Top heavy, but not deep and the center talent declined greatly post-'95 actually.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
[QUOTE=Ne 1]btw people romanticizing the state of 90s big men need to take of their rose colored nostalgia glasses. There was about a 3-4 year period where you can say big men were ruling the league, 1992-93 till 1994-1995 and maybe you can even add 1995-1996 but before/after was kind of bleak. Still better than today's league, [B]but not quite the same because it was never deep. Top heavy, but not deep and the center talent [/B]declined greatly post-'95 actually.[/QUOTE]
Are you serious?
That's what made that era challenging for big men. Sure not all of the big men from that era were great, but they didn't have to be. Playing against another big body was a challenge on to itself. Another thing was at least they played as true big men. Most of today's big men try to play like guards and the rules make the game today softer. Also by big men, most of us aren't just referring to centers (6'10-7 feet) but also true power forwards that will rotate on the big men and be physical.
Players like Greg Ostertag are far from being great and will probably never be remembered. But they still provided a challenge for players on both ends due to their big bodies, you don't even have that today. So even if star players didn't have to face other elite big men every night, the other big men didn't make things easy for them. Who does Dwight even face now? how many 7 footers does the league even have? do they even play deep in the post like true big men? and do the rules even allow them to be physical?
if Dwight played in past era, he wouldn't be considered the hall of fame player with multiple all star appearances and incredible stats. He's just not that good and too soft for that era.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?
I think a team could win more games and go further with Dwight as it's best player than Zo, simple as that.
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Re: Building a Team: Dwight or Alonzo Mourning?