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-   -   If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays...... (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281673)

detroitdogg 11-16-2012 03:06 PM

If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
And has a good-great game (Bron injured his shoulder last night against the Nuggets, I dont think he will miss time, just a thought) can we start top point to a chemistry issue?????

I completely feel like Wades problem right now is 100% mental, if you watch dude on the floor he has not lost a whole lot of what made him great, he is still just as quick, just does not jump as high as he used to (and thats always the 1st thing to decline). Coach Spo has constantly shown Wade no love over the last 2 seasons (or every since wade said Spo is not "his guy" but he is his coach), have you ever seen a superstar start out games 5-5 or 6-7 ect and get benched with 5 minutes left in the quarter no matter what. Since their 1st season where they had the 2 best all around numbers in the league, how much time has Wade had on the court without Lebron???? Why does coach Spo refuse to let Wade have his time to shine while giving Bron all the time in the world to do what he wants.

Maybe Wade is looking at this shit like, "hold up, we both are great players, treat us both like it". No matter if Wade is wrong or right (if this is the case), dont you think its the coaches job to keep players happy. Im not saying this is true, but mos def a possibility.

LBJ 23 11-16-2012 03:19 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by detroitdogg
Since their 1st season where they had the 2 best all around numbers in the league, how much time has Wade had on the court without Lebron????



Almost every game first 5-6 minutes of the second quarter and fourth quarter. And usually(there are times when they play great though) this is when Miami loses their lead or their flow is messed up. I'm not blaming Wade for this, it's completely normal that a team will start to struggle when its best overall player on the planet is on the bench.

Rarely, sometimes in the fourth quarter Lebron doesn't even check in if Wade and Bosh are blowing out teams, but like I said this does not happen very often.

detroitdogg 11-16-2012 03:26 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LBJ 23
Almost every game first 5-6 minutes of the second quarter and fourth quarter. And usually(there are times when they play great though) this is when Miami loses their lead or their flow is messed up. I'm not blaming Wade for this, it's completely normal that a team will start to struggle when its best overall player on the planet is on the bench.

Rarely, sometimes in the fourth quarter Lebron doesn't even start if Wade and Bosh are blowing out teams, but like I said this does not happen very often.

Nah, it was like that their 1st season together and it changed around the middle of last season. Bron usually starts the 2nd quarter after playing the whole 1st while Wade does not come back in until the 9 min mark. Bron rarely sits for more than 3 minutes at that point no matter how the game is going. All im saying is, when you have 2 players of that quality it will not help the situation by showing favoritism to one of them. For the last few games Wade was taken out at the 5 min mark in the 1st and at the 5 min mark in the 2dn, i mean, what the **** is that??????? How can anybody get in a rhythm if their coach does not let them stay on the floor no more than 5 minutes at a time. Coach Spo was doing this last year too, Wade was getting subbed 4 times per half SMH. Have you seen when Wade gets subbed at the 5 min mark in the 2nd and gets subbed back in at the 2 min mark, that shit is retarded my dude.

detroitdogg 11-16-2012 03:35 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Example: against the Rockets a few days ago Wade was 7-10 at the 5 min mark in the 2nd quarter (after he got back in at the 9 min mark), he was subbed out at the 5 min mark in the 2nd and never regained his rhythm, I dont understand the point of subs like that.

Whoah10115 11-16-2012 03:35 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Actually an interesting point. While I don't know if Coach Spo is that passive-aggressive, I do wonder. There is no reason (especially last year, with the bench as it was) why Wade and Lebron don't get time on the floor without the other...last year, Wade was hurt and was carrying too much weight. But even so, there were opportunities to get him some time on his own.



This year, he's still clearly recovering from the knee, but he's looking a lot lighter. He's not jumping as high, but he's still jumping high. He's still quick, he's still got great speed, even if not as much as before. With Allen now on the team and how ideally he works with Lebron (especially when allowed to handle the ball some) there is no reason for Wade not to get plenty of time with either Bosh or with neither of the two on the floor.


They still play very well with each other in the opening of games and at the end of games. When they're killing turnovers they obviously get out in transition like gangbusters. But they could use time to get their shine. In the end, it's gonna hurt Miami a lot when Wade is that diminished. Despite Shaq getting away with it for a couple years and Duncan getting away with it for a couple years, the truth is you can't just turn it on in the playoffs...not when you're actively shutting it down in the regular season. The Celtics suffer from it every year.

2swift4u 11-16-2012 04:10 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
I'm not sure we should blame Spolstra for Wade's performance. I think Wade is a) not giving it 100% at the moment and complainig too much on the court, not getting back etc. and b) he's not the player anymore he used to be. his way to play asks for great athletic abilities and 100% effort & aggressivness, which is hard to do as you're getting older (+ injuries). Nevertheless I think once the playoffs start he will be playing better.

Money 23 11-16-2012 04:54 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Good thread, by a knowledgeable Wade fan.

Let's start breaking it down.

People have been calling for the quick, rapid demise of Wade's dominance as a superstar (mostly Laker fans) since his quick ascension and domination of the league's elite in 2005, 2006, and 2007 w/ his shoulder injury, and then knee injury.

He has always recovered, and in some cases (2009, 2010) came back an even stronger player, literally as well (yes, I do think he took steroids) the current hate against Wade isn't fully warranted.

Is this the first season where he's showed VISIBLE decline? Yes. He's getting up there in terms of NBA age, and his playing style has changed. It relied a lot on athleticism, and attacking non stop, with tremendous amounts of heart. You can't do that all the time, especially at an advanced age in the NBA, and trying to go deep into the playoffs / Finals every season.

It's disappointing he hasn't elevated his defined basketball skills, particularly shooting, to slow down the aging process.

That's the skill that allowed MJ and Kobe to gradually age, yet still be quite clearly ELITE caliber players. We've been seeing this in LeBron too since 2011, and he's made another dramatic leap forward this year with his jumper.

Wade's regression is party due to age, partly due to his half court game being redundant w/ LeBron's and I also think a combo of the mental games w/ his coach and himself. Yes, there is quite clearly a passive / aggressive war between Wade and Spo. Has been for awhile. For all the reasons stated in this thread. Let's also not forget resident nice guy Wade, almost knocking his puny coach's block off on television in the playoffs last year. There is heat (pun intended) between the two.

It also has to do with confidence. He was hurt last season, and took a deliberate back seat to let LeBron be alpha and have a true pecking order on the team. It let LeBron flourish, and you can see Wade struggling with the adjustment to the role as beta. Because as recently as 2011, there numbers when both healthy were virtually the exact same.

It also doesn't help that maybe deep down, Wade is regretting the decision he made in 2010. As of now, people are acting as if LeBron has always been carrying a severely declined Wade. And history may go down with that as popular opinion, even if it's wrong. LeBron is getting his shine in the media, and Wade is slowly evaporating from the lime light.

He could've went to Chicago, been the team's best player for his hometown squad, had a superstar sidekick, who also would be a home towner and they could've took on the NBA as brothers in the shadow of the Jordan legacy, and shouldered that pressure together ... and I feel like that 2011 Bulls w/ Wade and Thibs as coach could've beat Miami w/ LeBron and Bosh.

Afterall, we are forgetting that Wade lost a tremendous accomplishment on his resume. He was LOCKED the way he was playing in 2011 to getting another ring, and a for sure FMVP and LeBron totally blew that for him.

Then the very next season, Wade once again makes a sacrifice to make LeBron look and feel good for the betterment of the team. This hate against Wade currently is un-warranted. He's had a couple of bad games. Big deal, he starts off the seasons slow always, works his way into shape and knocks off rust. He's also coming back from injury and dealing with this whole reduced role. I'm sure he's saving some in the tank for the playoff, too. Ray Allen is biting into a chunk of his minutes as well, and it doesn't help Spo doesn't let him go solo controlling the team to boost his stats, game, and confidence.

As I've said since the start of the year, he should be 6th man and feast on benches and easy defenses until the playoffs start. LeBron and Ray mesh better anyway on offense.

But it is disappointing it seems like he puts more work into his homo fashion trends, then in the gym on his jumper. Which would make him age much better, ala MJ, and Kobe.

It's annoying watching a once great ball player who played for dramatic buckets, decisively play for foul calls instead. I think him doing that shows a glimpse into his confidence levels, as well.

Whoah10115 11-16-2012 05:31 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2swift4u
I'm not sure we should blame Spolstra for Wade's performance. I think Wade is a) not giving it 100% at the moment and complainig too much on the court, not getting back etc. and b) he's not the player anymore he used to be. his way to play asks for great athletic abilities and 100% effort & aggressivness, which is hard to do as you're getting older (+ injuries). Nevertheless I think once the playoffs start he will be playing better.




Terrific post. He whines to the point that...he used to be one of my absolute favorite players...I honestly don't even like him anymore.



Money/Swoosh...I do think he's regretting his decision.


I don't know if Rose makes that leap with Wade there...but Wade is not a selfish player. They don't have guys in the frontcourt to go thru (do they sign Boozer if they sign Wade? Or would Taj be the starter?)...it'd be like a Dumars/Isiah backcourt in that the offense would be centered on a street-balling PG and a combo guard...Rose wouldn't have gotten the MVP, but he could have been just as good. And those two would have been the two best guards in the league that year...and if it did work out that way, they're probably a better team than the Heat team that did go the Finals that year. But that Heat team without Wade? Chicago is clearly better.



You know Lebron doesn't go to Miami then...and neither does Bosh...one of them go to Chicago lol.

Jolokia 11-16-2012 05:53 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Money 23
...


Great post!

But I'll have to disagree on being visibily hampered by his decline. We know it's coming, but I don't think it has limited him at all to start the season.

My theory is that I believe the insertion of Battier into the starting line up has really made Wade work harder for the shots he prefer. His go to move has been somewhat eliminated with Shane at the 4 and Bosh at the 5. This move is the pick and roll game. Wade's game has always been about being deceptive. Using a big man to fake the screen and having them stay put to sell the pick in roll even when it isn't there. Bosh rolls to the basket too soon and doesn't stick with what Wade is doing because of his playing style. Only Haslem and Joel Anthony has the patience and effort to set Wade free where DWade can feast on the big men down low.

Wade was unstoppable on top of the key because you knew what was coming, but didn't know how to stop his pick and roll game without doubling him before the point of attack. I believe Wade always knew how to use his big men better than any superstar of his time. He's just not completely comfortable out there it seems like. His mind is wondering too much.

Now he's doing more one-on-one (no screens) and plays that are drawn up whether it is posting up, cutting, or being a decoy. His constant pressure on the defense has been reduced, and it's because of how the gameplan has changed throughout the years. In their first year together (Lebron and Wade), they took turns doing what they knew best. Now it's what Spoelstra wants because now he has the credibility and confidence from the organization.

Wade's definitely trying to master all the skills Jordan had to develop though. Wade's midrange has shown improvement this season and he's added a more versatile game in the post. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the season how he evolves as a player and superstar he really can be still. And I do agree his minutes and role need to be under closer examination. I simply hate him right now because he might've ruined his legacy for the sake of the team, but I have to respect what he has done...especially for Lebron.

I've got to put this out there but I do think Wade will struggle as he gets older because he isn't 6'6"+ and isn't a sharp spot shooter.

asdf1990 11-16-2012 06:24 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Wades hot starts are due to lebron setting him up for easy baskets 9/10 times. When he plays without lebron at the start of the second, he sucks balls and keeps forcing the issue instead of making the right bball plays. If someone can get the stats for wade with and without lebron people will be surprised at how much wade has sucked this season without lebron setting him up.

detroitdogg 11-16-2012 06:57 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asdf1990
Wades hot starts are due to lebron setting him up for easy baskets 9/10 times. When he plays without lebron at the start of the second, he sucks balls and keeps forcing the issue instead of making the right bball plays. If someone can get the stats for wade with and without lebron people will be surprised at how much wade has sucked this season without lebron setting him up.

***** stop lying. Lebron averages less than 1 assist per game to wade since he has bee/ there. Wade is ALWAYS getting Lebron free buckets, not the other way around. Both are 2 of the least assisted superstars in the history of the game, but bron does nothing for wade on the court, nothing.

imdaman99 11-16-2012 07:05 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by detroitdogg
***** stop lying. Lebron averages less than 1 assist per game to wade since he has bee/ there. Wade is ALWAYS getting Lebron free buckets, not the other way around. Both are 2 of the least assisted superstars in the history of the game, but bron does nothing for wade on the court, nothing.

This.

I wonder how wade was getting any stats when lebron was in cleveland. It's amazing how much dck sucking lebron gets from his fanboys :oldlol:

RRR3 11-16-2012 07:13 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Money 23
I think he does. It wasn't just situational, it's because Rose is a hard worker, and motivated.

Even if he didn't, in 2010 he still was an all-star and put up 21 ppg, 6 apg, 4 rpg

That is enough alongside 2011 Wade 26 / 5 / 6, and that supporting cast, team defense to win an ring.


Maybe but for competition sake I wish that would have happened, but would want LeBron to form his own duo.

Imagine if LeBron had got either STAT or Bosh in Cleveland. He'd probably have a ring (or rings) there.

Money 23 11-16-2012 07:20 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RRR3
Imagine if LeBron had got either STAT or Bosh in Cleveland. He'd probably have a ring (or rings) there.

Under Mike Brown? Nah. Bosh clearly stated he wouldn't go to Cleveland, that was one of the issues that LeBron felt forced to go to Miami. Amare already had signed w/ NYC and he needed Amare or Bosh.

No one wanted to go to Cleveland, that was the problem. And I don't think LeBron / STAT or Bosh could beat Thibs Bulls of Rose, Wade, Deng, Boozer, Noah.

Their team is too complete. They have shooters, defenders, big men, and unlike the actual 2011 Bulls, they have 2x legit game changing / play making superstars.

Chicago boys win, 1989 and 1990 Detroit Piston style. Godly back court, and great defense.

Who on Cleveland is guarding Rose and Wade? LeBron would be on a lonely island if he choose to guard either individually, the way he did Rose in the 2011 ECF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Money/Swoosh...I do think he's regretting his decision.

I do too ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I don't know if Rose makes that leap with Wade there ...

I think he does. It wasn't just situational, it's because Rose is a hard worker, and motivated.

Even if he didn't, in 2010 he still was an all-star and put up 21 ppg, 6 apg, 4 rpg

That is enough alongside 2011 Wade 26 / 5 / 6, and that supporting cast, team defense to win an ring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoa10115
You know Lebron doesn't go to Miami then...and neither does Bosh...one of them go to Chicago lol.

Maybe but for competition sake I wish that would have happened, but would want LeBron to form his own duo.

RRR3 11-16-2012 07:22 PM

Re: If Lebron Sits Out The Next Game And Wade Plays......
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Money 23
Under Mike Brown? Nah. Bosh clearly stated he wouldn't go to Cleveland, that was one of the issues that LeBron felt forced to go to Miami. Amare already had signed w/ NYC and he needed Amare or Bosh.

No one wanted to go to Cleveland, that was the problem. And I don't think LeBron / STAT or Bosh could beat Thibs Bulls of Rose, Wade, Deng, Boozer, Noah.

Their team is too complete. They have shooters, defenders, big men, and unlike the actual 2011 Bulls, they have 2x legit game changing / play making superstars.

Chicago boys win, 1989 and 1990 Detroit Piston style. Godly back court, and great defense.

Well, with STAT he would have gone there earlier when they were trying to trade J.J. Hickson for him. Forget when exactly that was. LeBron was relatively close in Cleveland, a legit star as his 2nd option may have got him over the hump.


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