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-   -   Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=288323)

selrahc 01-23-2013 12:17 PM

Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
With the way things are going it seems like the center position is going to die. Years ago, players who were considered power forwards are now considered centers. The center position is basically now an extension of the power forward position, and power forwards are now hybrid 3/4.

Dwight howard is supposed to be the best center in the NBA but he is shit. There are very few good legitimate centers in the NBA. Even in all star balloting it is 2 guards, 3 front court players. Dwight Howard is a disgrace to the era of Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing, etc. He is a 10-12 mil per year player making max money.

STATUTORY 01-23-2013 12:21 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
if it does. Dwight howard is the main culprit.

Wilt and Kareem forced the NBA to change the rules to deter their dominance. Dwight Howard eulogized the end of the post game in the NBA

andremiller07 01-23-2013 12:21 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by selrahc
With the way things are going it seems like the center position is going to die. Years ago, players who were considered power forwards are now considered centers. The center position is basically now an extension of the power forward position, and power forwards are now hybrid 3/4.

Dwight howard is supposed to be the best center in the NBA but he is shit. There are very few good legitimate centers in the NBA. Even in all star balloting it is 2 guards, 3 front court players. Dwight Howard is a disgrace to the era of Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing, etc. He is a 10-12 mil per year player making max money.


Dwight is not the best centre in the NBA, Marc Gasol has been this year, but to answer your question there has been a lot as you said PF/C types rather than pure centres. I don't think it will die out because people will always try get a good true centre but there is for sure less and less of them.

JohnnySic 01-23-2013 12:30 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Its to the point that there isn't much talk about "centers" and "power forwards" anymore; they are just called "bigs". The lines have been blurred.

The change in format in the all-star game to "3 frontcourt players" reflects this.

copper 01-23-2013 12:40 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
A quality Big/ ceter is the most difficult position to find in the league..you can throw a rock up in the air and find a 20 pt scoring guard/sf. But a 7 footer that can play with skill? very difficult to find. Imagine what kind of damage a young Hakeem could do in this league? The problem is that they dont come around very often . When they do however they are very dominant, and will always be in demand

scm5 01-23-2013 12:40 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Yes, I believe the position is dying as well.

For whatever reason, C's are being underutilized in the game today. Teams are getting smaller and faster overall now.

SF's are playing at PF, PF's are playing at C.

The same is happening for guards as well, PG's are playing SG for periods of time. GSW run Curry and Jack together a lot of the time. LA started Morris at SG when Kobe slid over to SF. I'm sure this happens a lot more often than I am remembering, but these are the two teams I mainly watch and they run PG's at SG all the time.

Pretty soon, teams will just be using the ASG format of GGFFF instead of traditional roles.

scm5 01-23-2013 12:47 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by copper
A quality Big/ ceter is the most difficult position to find in the league..you can throw a rock up in the air and find a 20 pt scoring guard/sf. But a 7 footer that can play with skill? very difficult to find. Imagine what kind of damage a young Hakeem could do in this league? The problem is that they dont come around very often . When they do however they are very dominant, and will always be in demand


I agree.

A lot of it is also C's being underutilized. If given the chance to be the number one option, Bynum in previous seasons (healthy) could have probably averaged 22-25ppg in all likelihood.

In today's game, teams love spreading out the floor with shooters as well. Centers aren't very mobile and have problems switching onto guards. Forwards do a much better job at this. One of CP3's favorite things to do is forcing the switch and forcing an opposing C to guard him.

SCREWstonRockets 01-23-2013 01:06 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Was Yao the last center with a legit post game?

scm5 01-23-2013 01:09 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SCREWstonRockets
Was Yao the last center with a legit post game?


Andrew Bynum, Brook Lopez, Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan

I realize Pau and Duncan are mostly considered Forwards, but they are legit 7 footers and in any era, would be able to play C. They just prefer to be forwards.

Whoah10115 01-23-2013 01:27 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
More good centers than ever in the NBA (indisputable) but fewer elite players who are centers. Period. Howard is playing like crap, but even if you take this season as an anomaly, who else is elite? Bynum showed flashes and has potential...he's also an idiot who has a lot of injury concerns and isn't playing. Marc Gasol is a great player. He's a top 20-25 player, but I don't know that he can be that good...tho I know he can hang with most players, even in the 90's.



Maybe, at their best, those two would be ahead of a peak Dikembe (probably, I think), but would either be as good as Zo? No. So you have the two guys who are supposed to be next in line and who wouldn't be in the top 5 in the 90's. Pekovic wouldn't be top 5 either, even when he reaches his peak. But maybe he could be better than Dikembe (less sure). Noah, with all of his all-around quality, could maybe be better than Dikembe. But would he, before D'Antoni and that offense came around, be playing center? Tim Duncan, as he is this minute, would also not be as good as Mourning. But he would be better than Dikembe. Cousins is obviously the guy who could break higher, as he's super super talented and has already been very good. Time to see him be great. Then you have Howard disappointing and not having good fundamentals, and everyone thinks he's barely above average.


Good centers all around...all you have to do is mention them. And you can highlight the point by saying that Monroe, Jefferson, Nene, maybe even Al Horford are really PF's. Wouldn't stop you from mentioning 15 very good ones and some guys who have lots of potential (McGee, who has had a terrific season off the bench).

CavaliersFTW 01-23-2013 01:46 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scm5
Andrew Bynum, Brook Lopez, Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan

I realize Pau and Duncan are mostly considered Forwards, but they are legit 7 footers and in any era, would be able to play C. They just prefer to be forwards.

Duncan and Pau are about 6-10-6-11, so in the 60's and 70's when shoes weren't 1 inch plus in thickness they would not be "legit 7 footers" - doesn't take away from your point though, you don't have to be 7 feet tall to be a center

2LeTTeRS 01-23-2013 02:06 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Duncan and Pau are about 6-10-6-11, so in the 60's and 70's when shoes weren't 1 inch plus in thickness they would not be "legit 7 footers" - doesn't take away from your point though, you don't have to be 7 feet tall to be a center


Completely agree with you. And will go a little further and say that for as much as people seem to think that the center position "sucks" today, it is worlds better than it has been. In the late 90s to early 2000s teams were so stuck in the mindset that centers had to be over 7 ft and weigh more than 260 pounds, that they resorted to playing an inferior basketball player just because he had size. Now teams are more concerned with playing their best players instead of solely focusing on size.

Funny thing is that for as long as this has been going on it seems like the media and most fans just now starting to catch on. In 2009 I first pointed out that teams were starting to embrace smaller players ball we used to consider as lanky 4s (i.e. Al Horford, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, etc.) at the center position and noticed that it caused the teams to be more productive and everyone thought I was crazy. Now seems like every team has that type of guy at the 5.

Here check it out >>>> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=123791

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Everyone says the Shaq era had no big men. Its the widely held view and everybody uses this to discredit the time when Shaq was dominating the league, but this thought is false. The truth is Shaq was so dominant that he made center sized players like JO, Rasheed Wallace, Tim Duncan, Marcus Camby, Tyson Chandler, and Chris Webber chose to play the 4 because they didn't want to deal with his physicality. Teams were so intimidated by his game that they allowed an entire era's level of play to decline.

Think about how dominant a player has to be to make that big of an impact in the league. Every team wanted to play a 7 ft+ 270 pound big guy just so they could bang with Shaq. This meant we had good teams playing with guys like Jamal Magloire, Jason Collins, Jeff Foster, Erick Dampier, Elden Campbell, and Nazr Mohammed as starting centers because they were big bodies who would bang with Shaq, even though they had no skills. This approach which meant most teams were playing basically 4 on 5 on offense is what led to the fewest points scored in the modern era.

As Shaq's dominance declined, this style of play slowly started dying out. As Coach D'Antoni's Suns proved you could win (at least in the regular season) running and by playing your best players regardless of play the Big Stiff Era seems to be over. Now we have the group of 6"10+ bigs (JO, Sheed, Duncan, Chandler, etc) spending most of their time as centers while guys like KG or Dirk get minutes at the 5 from time to time, and because of it the level of play is increasing. Had all these bigs who are all as big or bigger than Hakeem and Patrick Ewing manned up and played big all along it would have been this way all along.


boozehound 01-23-2013 03:18 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
nope. Maybe if you looked around the league you would see the importance of players like the gasols, chandler, noah, drummond, etc. Sure, certain teams with the best 10 or so players in the league can get away with it, but look at the heat. Not playing a true center has killed them on the boards.

JohnnySic 01-23-2013 03:25 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Duncan and Pau are about 6-10-6-11, so in the 60's and 70's when shoes weren't 1 inch plus in thickness they would not be "legit 7 footers" - doesn't take away from your point though, you don't have to be 7 feet tall to be a center

Duncan is 6'10" but Pau is a legit 7'.

JohnnySic 01-23-2013 03:26 PM

Re: Is The Center Position Dead/Going to Die?
 
The demise of Greg Oden and Yao really set the center position back.


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