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-   -   ISH Debate Tourney- Round 1: Air Seth vs. AKADS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9962)

Skywalker 09-01-2006 11:34 PM

ISH Debate Tourney- Round 1: Air Seth vs. AKADS
 
These two are debating which kind of player is more important in the NBA? A perimeter player, or a post player? Here are the opening statements.

Side debating perimeter players are more important
I am here to Debate which is more Important in the ‘New-NBA’ Bigs VS Smalls. I am on the side that having a dominate ball handler or wing player is more important. The NBA has developing into a quicker game where it seems like everything is decided on the foul line. This yr we had 6 players average over 10 FTA per game. To put that in context MJ averaged 10 or more 2ce in entire career. Nique, Bird, Magic and Drexler never did that. David Stern changed the game with two words Hand Checking. The official rule is as stated. A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket with his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm). David Stern changed the game by allowing wing players like DWade, Kobe, LeBron the ability to do what they want and defender are helpless to try to stop them or they will be in foul trouble very quickly. Tradition would say Big Man have been the key and I can’t argue with that. But the golden era of the NBA is based on three superstars. Jordan, Bird, and Magic. David Stern is going to continue to make the game easier for his skilled players to try to recreate what the 80’s were. Oh yeah the back to back MVP was a 6’3” point who can’t dunk. 5 of the top 6 players in the MVP voting were under 6’8”. The one exception is Dirk Nowitzki who plays a game very similar to most wing player.


Side debating post players are more important
Frontline Dominance

In the history of the NBA no area of the game has been more important than the frontcourt. It has always been the number one part of Basketball that is essential for success. Any team that wants to win a championship needs a dominant big man to do so.

The NBA of today is reliant on frontcourt players. Quality guards are a dime a dozen nowadays but quality big men aren’t as easy to come by. Championship teams of today always have a dominant, skillful, and solid frontcourt player to anchor the team offensively and defensively. The last 8 championship teams have had great frontcourts. The Pistons, Spurs, Lakers, and Heat. Also, 6 out of the 8 NBA Finals MVP’s have been big men.

Frontcourt players now are much more rounded offensively than they used to be. Big men are now much more athletic and can actually shoot the ball effectively. They have more skills than they used to and are more deadly than ever. Big men spread the floor offensively and make the game much easier for guards. They open things up and the game runs much smoother like that. The frontcourt also anchors the defence. They are the last line of defence and they intimidate the other team.

I will say it again. Teams need a solid frontcourt to be successful. The Nets are an excellent example of this. In 2002 and 2003 the Nets went to the NBA finals with a solid frontcourt. Now they have the best 1, 2, 3 group in the NBA but a non-dominant frontcourt and they have yet to be back in the Finals. A great backcourt can only get you so far; you must have a good frontcourt to win.

The Lakers are another example of this. When they won their three straight titles they had a great frontcourt. They had a solid backcourt as well but they were successful because of the big men. Now they have the best player in the world in Kobe Bryant but a weak frontcourt and look where they are. They made it to the first round of the play-offs mainly on Kobe and like I said, guards can only get you so far.

So in the NBA of today, the frontcourt is still more important than the backcourt. Success hinges on the big man. No team in the last 8 years has won an NBA title without a great frontcourt.

Great Frontcourt= Success

AKADS 09-01-2006 11:57 PM

Quote:

Frontline Dominance

In the history of the NBA no area of the game has been more important than the frontcourt. It has always been the number one part of Basketball that is essential for success. Any team that wants to win a championship needs a dominant big man to do so.

I can't debate the history but history has a mmuch different set of rules. Bigs have been very dominate with championships and awards but a player you might have heard of I believe his name was Jordan, he kind of changed the game.

Quote:

The NBA of today is reliant on frontcourt players. Quality guards are a dime a dozen nowadays but quality big men aren’t as easy to come by. Championship teams of today always have a dominant, skillful, and solid frontcourt player to anchor the team offensively and defensively. The last 8 championship teams have had great frontcourts. The Pistons, Spurs, Lakers, and Heat. Also, 6 out of the 8 NBA Finals MVP’s have been big men.

Pistons were a 5 deep team that relied more on Mr Big Shot then any other player. They never had a 'Dominate Big Man'. Sheed still thinks he is a shooting gaurd for half of every game. Spurs, TD injury this yr showed how good that team is both coached and how good both Manu and Tony are Tony was the Spurs MVP this yr. Lakers and Heat thats easy Kobe and Dwade the two best gaurds in the NBA.

Quote:

Frontcourt players now are much more rounded offensively than they used to be. Big men are now much more athletic and can actually shoot the ball effectively. They have more skills than they used to and are more deadly than ever. Big men spread the floor offensively and make the game much easier for guards. They open things up and the game runs much smoother like that. The frontcourt also anchors the defence. They are the last line of defence and they intimidate the other team.

They are more rounded they are developing the skills they need to be able to be competitive in the NBA. What is that play more like a gaurd. They are playing an outside - in game. as far as defencive anchor, they can't contest shots the NBA has made the rules to allow players to get to the rim and free throw line.

Quote:

I will say it again. Teams need a solid frontcourt to be successful. The Nets are an excellent example of this. In 2002 and 2003 the Nets went to the NBA finals with a solid frontcourt. Now they have the best 1, 2, 3 group in the NBA but a non-dominant frontcourt and they have yet to be back in the Finals. A great backcourt can only get you so far; you must have a good frontcourt to win.

The Nets problem is they 3 some is not a group of three that complement each others game as well as they could. They have no light out shooter and JKidds age is developing into a problem. They are unable to out run younger teams. And they haven't gone far this was there first full year together. Champions take time and the right role players.

Quote:

The Lakers are another example of this. When they won their three straight titles they had a great frontcourt. They had a solid backcourt as well but they were successful because of the big men. Now they have the best player in the world in Kobe Bryant but a weak frontcourt and look where they are. They made it to the first round of the play-offs mainly on Kobe and like I said, guards can only get you so far.

Lakers are a horrible example. After trading Shaq lets see they lost, there starting PF, there starting PG, maybe the best coach in NBA history. And then we all look at Kobe who had played a lot of basketball over the previous 4 seasons and expect him to change his game and develope on a new team over night. Lakers showed the team they were this yr with 45 wins in the tougher confrence. Kobe without a dominate big man took his team to the playoffs and almost wn a series VS a tough Phenoix team.


Quote:

So in the NBA of today, the frontcourt is still more important than the backcourt. Success hinges on the big man. No team in the last 8 years has won an NBA title without a great frontcourt.

Great Frontcourt= Success
The NBA of today is not the game it was. If you were Riley and you were down by one Shaq isn't getting the ball. Hell he might be on the bench so a team can't foul him, Wade is the man who is goin to take that shot. Wing players are the new era of the NBA. You don't have to like it but you will have to deal with it.

AIR SETH 09-02-2006 03:11 AM

Quote:

The NBA has developing into a quicker game where it seems like everything is decided on the foul line.

Yeah and today's frontcourt players have adapted to that. Athletic big men are becoming more and more common for the simple reason that they have to be. Stern has designed rules that give advantages to his precious guards and the big men continue to change how they play to compensate for this... How should I put it...Unfair advantage. The frontcourt gets the short end of the stick nowadays and they continue to pull through proving their worth. Guards have been given the oppurtunity to shine but how many backcourts in the "New NBA" have completely lead their team alone to a championship? The answer is 0. In the last 8 years no team has won a title without a solid frontcourt.


Quote:

David Stern changed the game with two words Hand Checking. The official rule is as stated. A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket with his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm). David Stern changed the game by allowing wing players like DWade, Kobe, LeBron the ability to do what they want and defender are helpless to try to stop them or they will be in foul trouble very quickly.

Yeah the "New NBA" is soft. The game used to be physical and a challenge but Stern decided to wussy it up and allow his guards to get all the breaks. Hand Checking is a joke. It is just another way to inflate his oh so important guards stats. MJ had to work to accomplish what he did. Today's guards wouldn't be able to do what Jordan did if the game was like it was back in the day. Do you think Dwayne Wade would go for 27 a game in the old NBA? I think not. Dwyane Wade is no where close to Jordan and MJ scored in the 30's in a time when tough, agressive, and hard defense was promoted. (Sorry for going on that tirade)

I will agree, guards do get to do what they want on the court but that has yet to get them a ring on their finger. Take away Shaq and Haslem from the Heat this year and replace them with Nenad Kristic and Al Jefferson. Would the Heat have won the NBA title...Hell no. Even add another solid guard to the Heat and they would not have won. Haslem and Shaq were very important to the Heat on defence and Shaq was very important to the Heat on offence. Without them they would have been no where close to the title.

Quote:

Oh yeah the back to back MVP was a 6’3” point who can’t dunk.

That's great but as I recall the purpose of playing in the NBA is to win a title. Guards can win all the MVP's they want but they will never get a ring without a solid and dominant frontcourt.

AKADS 09-02-2006 03:25 AM

Quote:

Yeah and today's frontcourt players have adapted to that. Athletic big men are becoming more and more common for the simple reason that they have to be. Stern has designed rules that give advantages to his precious guards and the big men continue to change how they play to compensate for this... How should I put it...Unfair advantage. The frontcourt gets the short end of the stick nowadays and they continue to pull through proving their worth. Guards have been given the oppurtunity to shine but how many backcourts in the "New NBA" have completely lead their team alone to a championship? The answer is 0. In the last 8 years no team has won a title without a solid frontcourt.
SO you are agreeing that the developement of the NBA is to go outside. Your saying that the NBA is becoming a league which will punish big men. Wade lead his team. Shaq was not a dominate big. He was not Shaq in the sence of him goin for 40/20. Shaq presence was not the reason why Miami won the tittle. Since the hand check rule it has also put a lot of bigs in foul trouble.


Quote:

Yeah the "New NBA" is soft. The game used to be physical and a challenge but Stern decided to wussy it up and allow his guards to get all the breaks. Hand Checking is a joke. It is just another way to inflate his oh so important guards stats. MJ had to work to accomplish what he did. Today's guards wouldn't be able to do what Jordan did if the game was like it was back in the day. Do you think Dwayne Wade would go for 27 a game in the old NBA? I think not. Dwyane Wade is no where close to Jordan and MJ scored in the 30's in a time when tough, agressive, and hard defense was promoted. (Sorry for going on that tirade)

I will agree, guards do get to do what they want on the court but that has yet to get them a ring on their finger. Take away Shaq and Haslem from the Heat this year and replace them with Nenad Kristic and Al Jefferson. Would the Heat have won the NBA title...Hell no. Even add another solid guard to the Heat and they would not have won. Haslem and Shaq were very important to the Heat on defence and Shaq was very important to the Heat on offence. Without them they would have been no where close to the title.

So your argument is replace a veteran and team leader as well as a good role player for a import who has yet to prove himself and a kid who has barley played. How about replae Shaq with Zo or anybig man who has proven he can play. Im not saying bigs are useless and shouldn't be in the NBA but they aren't the reason for winning they are playing a role. Shaq became a second fiddle.

Quote:

That's great but as I recall the purpose of playing in the NBA is to win a title. Guards can win all the MVP's they want but they will never get a ring without a solid and dominant frontcourt.

Well put. But guess what the Suns were a top team. Nash didn't have a single big man on his team. As i have stated you need to have big men and they do play roles but they are now the second fiddle. Not the star.

AIR SETH 09-02-2006 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKADS
Pistons were a 5 deep team that relied more on Mr Big Shot then any other player. They never had a 'Dominate Big Man'. Sheed still thinks he is a shooting gaurd for half of every game. Spurs, TD injury this yr showed how good that team is both coached and how good both Manu and Tony are Tony was the Spurs MVP this yr. Lakers and Heat thats easy Kobe and Dwade the two best gaurds in the NBA.


Take away the Wallace's from that Pistons team and replace them with weaker and less skilled big men. How would the Pistons have done...Well they wouldn't have made those championship belts, that's for sure. Yeah the Spurs did fine without Duncan for a portion of the season. But do you honestly believe that Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili would have lead the Spurs to the WCF without Duncan? The Spurs would not have gone that far without Big Shot Rob. "Lakers and Heat thats easy Kobe and Dwade the two best gaurds in the NBA." Are you serious? Both had Shaq, the most dominant force the NBA has ever known. Shaq was the main reason they won those titles. Take him away from those teams and there is no possible way they still win. I have said it before and I will say it again, Success hinges on the frontcourt. A great backcourt can only get you so far.

I had to single this one out.

AIR SETH 09-02-2006 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKADS
SO you are agreeing that the developement of the NBA is to go outside. Your saying that the NBA is becoming a league which will punish big men. Wade lead his team. Shaq was not a dominate big. He was not Shaq in the sence of him goin for 40/20. Shaq presence was not the reason why Miami won the tittle. Since the hand check rule it has also put a lot of bigs in foul trouble.


How can you not say the developement of the NBA is to go outside. Of course it is. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Stern has made it clear that the game is going to be changed to benefit guards but that does not mean they are the most important players on the court. You have to admit that guards get all the breaks now and bigs get the short end of the stick. You do. But still, in today's NBA, the keys to winning a championship rely on the frontcourt. If you can go out and put together a great frontcourt and then just throw some ok guards in there you are pretty much guaranteed a title.


Quote:

So your argument is replace a veteran and team leader as well as a good role player for a import who has yet to prove himself and a kid who has barley played. How about replae Shaq with Zo or anybig man who has proven he can play. Im not saying bigs are useless and shouldn't be in the NBA but they aren't the reason for winning they are playing a role. Shaq became a second fiddle.

YES. Replace a solid frontcourt with a weak one and see where your prized backcourt can take you. If the game is based around guards and they have all these rules backing them up they should have no problem in leading a weak frontcourt to a title. This has yet to be done in the "New NBA" because solid big men are a necessity for winning a title.



Quote:

Well put. But guess what the Suns were a top team. Nash didn't have a single big man on his team. As i have stated you need to have big men and they do play roles but they are now the second fiddle. Not the star.

The number one thing that I am focussing on is success which means winning an NBA title. Yes the Suns were a top team without a solid frontcourt but did they win the championship? No a team with a great frontcourt did.

AKADS 09-02-2006 04:00 AM

Quote:

Take away the Wallace's from that Pistons team and replace them with weaker and less skilled big men. How would the Pistons have done...Well they wouldn't have made those championship belts, that's for sure.

Alright. SO you feel the most important players in the Pistons are the Wallace boys. So why did Chauncey win the Finals MVP and was a contender for the MVP this yr. Rasheed has proven in the past he is a role player. He is not a true superstar and has a hard time taking over a game. Second watch Rasheed. He is trying to become a wing player. He has moved his game from the post to shoot more 3's. If a post player is so important why do they all want to move out of the post and to the wing.


Quote:

Yeah the Spurs did fine without Duncan for a portion of the season. But do you honestly believe that Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili would have lead the Spurs to the WCF without Duncan? The Spurs would not have gone that far without Big Shot Rob.
Here is a huge hole in your argument. Big Shot Bob is a 3 point specialist. He is not a post player. Remember you are defending a style of play onot positions. The PF's in this league are no longer all post players. Duncan is a post player and has been one of the best player in the league. Would the SPurs go as deep without him? No, stupid question if you want to play without any big men you will loose. Aks the Hawks about that. But is Duncan a dominate big man who controls a game. he can be but Tony Parker showed this year he has more control over the game and was the MVP of the Spurs.




Quote:

Lakers and Heat thats easy Kobe and Dwade the two best gaurds in the NBA." Are you serious? Both had Shaq, the most dominant force the NBA has ever known. Shaq was the main reason they won those titles. Take him away from those teams and there is no possible way they still win. I have said it before and I will say it again, Success hinges on the frontcourt. A great backcourt can only get you so far.

Kobe had Shaq yeah, DWade got a big body with a few post moves. Lakers won there championship while the old rules were still around and players could play defence. Before the wings were given a path to basket with a few bouncer keeping it clear for them. Shaq played a huge role on the Heat but DWade was the key. Lets look at like this if DWade wasn't on the heat and was replaced with an average 2. Lets say Mo Pete who is a very servicable and underrated player. The heat would not have won 50 games. They would not be in the Finals or the ECF they would knocked out in the first round. Without there superstar the Heat are not a top team in the NBA. Now lets say Shaq was gone and they replaced him with Magloire. DWade took a team to the playoffs before Shaq was there and would take the Heat to the ECF without Shaq. He would still have a Big man who can help and play his role but DWade distribute the ball, shoots, gets points, rebounds and put the other team into foul trouble making it easier for his teammates. `

AKADS 09-02-2006 04:36 AM

Quote:

How can you not say the developement of the NBA is to go outside. Of course it is. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Stern has made it clear that the game is going to be changed to benefit guards but that does not mean they are the most important players on the court. You have to admit that guards get all the breaks now and bigs get the short end of the stick. You do. But still, in today's NBA, the keys to winning a championship rely on the frontcourt. If you can go out and put together a great frontcourt and then just throw some ok guards in there you are pretty much guaranteed a title.
So you admit that the development of the NBA is to create an outside game there for become a wing player. The NBA has changed to push this yet you continue to tell me that you need a dominate post player to win. I give that the Heat won and Shaq was a dominate player at one point of his career. I can't argue you need good player at all 5 positions to win. Big man are very important to winning. But an elite gaurd is more important. Look ath the teams who made the playoffs last yr. Detriot. We have been over this Billups was the best player on that team and the reason why they did what they did last yr. Miami, DWade. Cleveland, Washington, Gilbert. Indiana, Peja and SJax. JO was injuried all season as was the rest of the team yet they made the playoffs because of there gaurds. Chicago, Hinrich and Gordon even Deng and Nocioni play on the wing this team had zero good big men. Just one over paid one. Milwaukee, Redd and there rotation of 3 points. Sure Bogut and Magloire but neither were anything to write home about last season. 8 Eastern teams in the playoffs 7 teams which were lead by a wing player. So I give you Indiana but they had a good group of gaurds. In the West. Dallas, well here we go. Dirk is a wing player. He might be a Power Forward. Might play D on the block VS other teams PF but his game comes from outside shooting and driving to the net. San Antonio, Parker was the MVP of that team last yr. Suns, next. Denver, Melo hell there bigs missed how many games and yet they were able to win there division. Take Melo out for that much time and see where they finish. Clippers, They sucked 2 yrs ago and they went and traded for one gaurd and signed another and what happen they made the playoffs. Cassel was the man who made the engine go. Maggette, Mobley, Ross, Cassel, and Livingston are the reason they were able to turn that franchise around. Brand has been doin his thing since he got in the league yet it never brings winning, Cassel wins every where he goes. Memphis. Look at there record before Damon got injured and after. This team had the best role player in the NBA in Battier and the 6th Man Mike Miller both wing players. Pau playe his part and they wouldn't be as good without him but without Damon this team struggled. Lakers, they are the worse team in the NBA without Kobe. Sacromento, Ron Artest saved this teams season. Not the turn around of a post player a Small Forward was traded to this team and he single handedly took that team into the playoffs. Lets just remember the Hornets. They took a horrible team added a rookie point and they almost made the playoffs. Replace Chris Paul with any big man and that team doesn't get that much better.


Quote:

YES. Replace a solid frontcourt with a weak one and see where your prized backcourt can take you. If the game is based around guards and they have all these rules backing them up they should have no problem in leading a weak frontcourt to a title. This has yet to be done in the "New NBA" because solid big men are a necessity for winning a title

Thats like saying change the heats backcourt with Deshaun Stevenson and Steve Blake. I think the Heat would miss the playoffs. Wade could take Nenad and Jefferson to the playoffs.


Quote:

The number one thing that I am focussing on is success which means winning an NBA title. Yes the Suns were a top team without a solid frontcourt but did they win the championship? No a team with a great frontcourt did.
Succsess for a NBA team is first making money. The NBA is a business. Winning a tittle is the ultimate goal but it takes more then a dominate player. It takes a team and finding player to play there role. The roles have changed and being able to score and get to the foul line is very important. The best player at doin that are gaurds and wing players. Big man are being fazed out of the NBA. There is still a role for them but they are no longer a needed to win. The Bulls tought us that.

AIR SETH 09-02-2006 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKADS
Alright. SO you feel the most important players in the Pistons are the Wallace boys. So why did Chauncey win the Finals MVP and was a contender for the MVP this yr. Rasheed has proven in the past he is a role player. He is not a true superstar and has a hard time taking over a game. Second watch Rasheed. He is trying to become a wing player. He has moved his game from the post to shoot more 3's. If a post player is so important why do they all want to move out of the post and to the wing.


I said the Pistons would not have won the NBA title without the Wallace's. Which is true. Without Ben Wallace who would have kept Shaq in check? Without Rasheed who would have provided that other scoring option who put points on the board, played D, and rebounded. The fact of the matter is, if you replce the Wallace's with a less capable and less dominant players the Pistons would not have won.



Quote:

Here is a huge hole in your argument. Big Shot Bob is a 3 point specialist. He is not a post player. Remember you are defending a style of play onot positions. The PF's in this league are no longer all post players. Duncan is a post player and has been one of the best player in the league. Would the SPurs go as deep without him? No, stupid question if you want to play without any big men you will loose. Aks the Hawks about that. But is Duncan a dominate big man who controls a game. he can be but Tony Parker showed this year he has more control over the game and was the MVP of the Spurs.


Wrong. We are debating on which is more important in today's NBA, the frontcourt or the backcourt. If a PF can shoot the three ball effectively all the more power to him. Times have changed and the way the frontcourt is being played is changing as well. PF's that can shoot the three ball effectively are that more dangerous on offence. It gives them another solid way to score. The only reason Parker was the MVP of the Spurs is because Duncan was injured for a portion of the year. If Duncan was healthy he would have been their MVP just like he is every other year. In the play-offs Duncan became the number 1 option again and he outscored and almost out-assisted Tony Parker.


Quote:

Kobe had Shaq yeah, DWade got a big body with a few post moves. Lakers won there championship while the old rules were still around and players could play defence. Before the wings were given a path to basket with a few bouncer keeping it clear for them. Shaq played a huge role on the Heat but DWade was the key. Lets look at like this if DWade wasn't on the heat and was replaced with an average 2. Lets say Mo Pete who is a very servicable and underrated player. The heat would not have won 50 games. They would not be in the Finals or the ECF they would knocked out in the first round. Without there superstar the Heat are not a top team in the NBA. Now lets say Shaq was gone and they replaced him with Magloire. DWade took a team to the playoffs before Shaq was there and would take the Heat to the ECF without Shaq. He would still have a Big man who can help and play his role but DWade distribute the ball, shoots, gets points, rebounds and put the other team into foul trouble making it easier for his teammates.

Like you said, if you take D-Wade away from the Heat they are not successful. Same thing happens if you take away Shaq. The argument is the exact same with taking away either the great frontcourt or backcourt player.

AKADS 09-02-2006 04:54 AM

[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by AIR SETH
I said the Pistons would not have won the NBA title without the Wallace's. Which is true. Without Ben Wallace who would have kept Shaq in check? Without Rasheed who would have provided that other scoring option who put points on the board, played D, and rebounded. The fact of the matter is, if you replce the Wallace's with a less capable and less dominant players the Pistons would not have won.


The Pistons would not have won a championship without any of there starting 5. Your arguing that as if I am saying that a solid post player is not needed. They are needed but they are not as valuable to the team or the game with the new rules.


Quote:

Wrong. We are debating on which is more important in today's NBA, the frontcourt or the backcourt. If a PF can shoot the three ball effectively all the more power to him. Times have changed and the way the frontcourt is being played is changing as well. PF's that can shoot the three ball effectively are that more dangerous on offence. It gives them another solid way to score. The only reason Parker was the MVP of the Spurs is because Duncan was injured for a portion of the year. If Duncan was healthy he would have been their MVP just like he is every other year. In the play-offs Duncan became the number 1 option again and he outscored and almost out-assisted Tony Parker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skywalker
These two are debating which kind of player is more important in the NBA? A perimeter player, or a post player? Here are the opening statements.

Not Foward VS Gaurds

Post VS Perimeter.


In the playoffs they were knocked out in the second round. Which they would have if they played the Suns to. Manu had an bad post season and the Spurs were beatable. Duncan is not the key to that team like he was in the past.




Quote:

Like you said, if you take D-Wade away from the Heat they are not successful. Same thing happens if you take away Shaq. The argument is the exact same with taking away either the great frontcourt or backcourt player.

They aren't without Wade. They have true number one option Shaq is old and always in foul trouble with the new NBA rules. Toine is not a first option. The NBA is based around first options and there ability to score and get other players involved. If Wades work load was dropped on a big man he would be unsucsessful in the NBA right now. You have to have an outside game to become a serious scoring threat or you will get into foul trouble and be sitting on the bench.

AIR SETH 09-02-2006 05:33 AM

Quote:

In the playoffs they were knocked out in the second round. Which they would have if they played the Suns to. Manu had an bad post season and the Spurs were beatable. Duncan is not the key to that team like he was in the past.

Did you see what Duncan did for the Spurs in the second round. He was the number 1 option and he gave it all he had to win. His stat-line is amazing for the second round.

PPG ASP RPG BPG SPG FGP

32.3 3.7 11.7 2.57 1.0 .556%

If that isn't number 1 option I don't know what is.


Quote:

They aren't without Wade. They have true number one option Shaq is old and always in foul trouble with the new NBA rules. Toine is not a first option. The NBA is based around first options and there ability to score and get other players involved. If Wades work load was dropped on a big man he would be unsucsessful in the NBA right now. You have to have an outside game to become a serious scoring threat or you will get into foul trouble and be sitting on the bench.

Do you not think a Tim Duncan or a Kevin Garnett could handle that load? They have before and they still do. When they are needed they come up in games and get it done. Even in today's NBA.

AKADS 09-02-2006 05:49 AM

Quote:

Did you see what Duncan did for the Spurs in the second round. He was the number 1 option and he gave it all he had to win. His stat-line is amazing for the second round.

PPG........ASP........RPG........BPG........SPG... .....FGP

32.3........3.7........11.7........2.57........1.0 .........556%

If that isn't number 1 option I don't know what is.
So you talk about winning championships and that is what makes a team sucsessful then you give me stats for one of the most dominate big men in the game, who was knocked out in the second round. He also posted these stats vs a team that loves to run an undersized line up. Duncan was not able to win the series. Your searching for examples and stretching your own debate to make them fit because of the lack of examples in this the new NBA.



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Do you not think a Tim Duncan or a Kevin Garnett could handle that load? They have before and they still do. When they are needed they come up in games and get it done. Even in today's NBA.


Well Duncan can't stay healthy. He would not be able to handle a huge work laod he would be injured or to worn down to play in the playoffs. Garnett my favourite lpayer in this argument. I was waiting for you to bring this up. Garnett is the perfect player for me to defend my argument. Garnett maybe the most skilled big man the NBA has ever seen has not made the playoffs in the last two years. Well lets look at the last time he did make the playoffs. Oh wait he had the poster boy for winning Mr. Sam I am and Latrell 'I need to feed my family **** 21 million" Sprewell. Sam was the gaurd who ran that team and Latrell was the primary scorer. Since Garnett lost his wing players he has not made the playoffs. Garnett went from the MVP to missing the playoffs. His game didn't change over night it was him not being able to take games over the way a wing player can.

Garnetts team is as good as the Lakers yet Kobe has taken his team to the playoffs and Garnett hasn't. Explain why that is. If bigs or Post players are so much more important to winning why can Garnett not get to the playoffs.

AIR SETH 09-02-2006 02:33 PM

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Originally Posted by AKADS
So you talk about winning championships and that is what makes a team sucsessful then you give me stats for one of the most dominate big men in the game, who was knocked out in the second round. He also posted these stats vs a team that loves to run an undersized line up. Duncan was not able to win the series. Your searching for examples and stretching your own debate to make them fit because of the lack of examples in this the new NBA.


Is the ultimate goal of the players in the NBA not to win a title?

I posted Duncan's stats because you said he was no longer the number 1 option for the Spurs which he is. Duncan is still the most important player on that team and he is still their number 1 option to go to.



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Garnetts team is as good as the Lakers yet Kobe has taken his team to the playoffs and Garnett hasn't. Explain why that is. If bigs or Post players are so much more important to winning why can Garnett not get to the playoffs.

Like you said, you need to be solid at every position to win. KG went for 22 a game with just under 13 boards, and 4 assists. His stats are impressive and he does what ever he can to win. It's not his fault if his team does not produce like they should. KG is still going for great numbers, it's not like the "New NBA" has slowed him down.

AIR SETH 09-02-2006 03:21 PM

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Originally Posted by AKADS
So you admit that the development of the NBA is to create an outside game there for become a wing player. The NBA has changed to push this yet you continue to tell me that you need a dominate post player to win. I give that the Heat won and Shaq was a dominate player at one point of his career. I can't argue you need good player at all 5 positions to win. Big man are very important to winning. But an elite gaurd is more important.


How many great guards is there in the NBA today? A lot. How many great post players is there in the NBA today? Not a lot. They are becoming more and more important nowadays because of the overall lack of quality big men. Teams that have a great frontcourt and an ok backcourt are much more likely to win the NBA title compared to a team with a great backcourt and an ok frontcourt. The backcourt can only take you so far...If the NBA of today is designed for the guard and they are the most important part of a team, why does a great guard team have yet to lead a team alone to the Finals?

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Look ath the teams who made the playoffs last yr. Detriot. We have been over this Billups was the best player on that team and the reason why they did what they did last yr. Miami, DWade. Cleveland, Washington, Gilbert. Indiana, Peja and SJax. JO was injuried all season as was the rest of the team yet they made the playoffs because of there gaurds. Chicago, Hinrich and Gordon even Deng and Nocioni play on the wing this team had zero good big men. Just one over paid one. Milwaukee, Redd and there rotation of 3 points. Sure Bogut and Magloire but neither were anything to write home about last season. 8 Eastern teams in the playoffs 7 teams which were lead by a wing player. So I give you Indiana but they had a good group of gaurds. In the West. Dallas, well here we go. Dirk is a wing player. He might be a Power Forward. Might play D on the block VS other teams PF but his game comes from outside shooting and driving to the net. San Antonio, Parker was the MVP of that team last yr. Suns, next. Denver, Melo hell there bigs missed how many games and yet they were able to win there division. Take Melo out for that much time and see where they finish. Clippers, They sucked 2 yrs ago and they went and traded for one gaurd and signed another and what happen they made the playoffs. Cassel was the man who made the engine go. Maggette, Mobley, Ross, Cassel, and Livingston are the reason they were able to turn that franchise around. Brand has been doin his thing since he got in the league yet it never brings winning, Cassel wins every where he goes. Memphis. Look at there record before Damon got injured and after. This team had the best role player in the NBA in Battier and the 6th Man Mike Miller both wing players. Pau playe his part and they wouldn't be as good without him but without Damon this team struggled. Lakers, they are the worse team in the NBA without Kobe. Sacromento, Ron Artest saved this teams season. Not the turn around of a post player a Small Forward was traded to this team and he single handedly took that team into the playoffs. Lets just remember the Hornets. They took a horrible team added a rookie point and they almost made the playoffs. Replace Chris Paul with any big man and that team doesn't get that much better.

Don't use the Heat. They would not have gone far without Shaq or Haslem. All those teams made the play-offs with their guards, sure but how far did they go? First, Second round? Dallas and Dirk is another story. Today's get in the paint and dominate post players are a dying breed. Today's successful bigs have good mid-range shooting games and they have developed a more finessful game. We are arguing as to who is more important, perimiter players or post players. Well the way the post is being played is changing so it should still fall under the category of post if these players can shoot and play a much more skilled game. They don't go to the paint as much to give out hits and go up for a dunk like they used to. They don't get in their and use some great post moves as much as they used to. They have developed mid-range capabilities that allow them to do more on the court. This may go away from how I am supposed to be arguing this but I am not going to lie. The frontcourt has changed but it is still the frontcourt.

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Thats like saying change the heats backcourt with Deshaun Stevenson and Steve Blake. I think the Heat would miss the playoffs. Wade could take Nenad and Jefferson to the playoffs.

I don't care if DW can take them to the play-offs, I want him to lead that weak frontcourt to the title. Success hinges on the big man.


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Succsess for a NBA team is first making money. The NBA is a business. Winning a tittle is the ultimate goal but it takes more then a dominate player. It takes a team and finding player to play there role. The roles have changed and being able to score and get to the foul line is very important. The best player at doin that are gaurds and wing players. Big man are being fazed out of the NBA. There is still a role for them but they are no longer a needed to win. The Bulls tought us that.

I was talking about the ultimate goal of the players not management. As for the guards, they go no where without a solid frontcourt to help them out. Bigs spread the floor and make the game easier for them. What they do goes beyond stats.

AKADS 09-02-2006 06:55 PM

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Is the ultimate goal of the players in the NBA not to win a title?

I posted Duncan's stats because you said he was no longer the number 1 option for the Spurs which he is. Duncan is still the most important player on that team and he is still their number 1 option to go to.

Your telling me he was the number opne option. I will agree with that and that is why they were knocked out. Parker should have continued to do what he did all season to get the Spurs the number one seed. When Duncan took the ball out of his wing players hands the Spurs lost. You can't argue with that. The Spurs were more sucsessful this season with Parker and Manu being the stars not Duncan.



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Like you said, you need to be solid at every position to win. KG went for 22 a game with just under 13 boards, and 4 assists. His stats are impressive and he does what ever he can to win. It's not his fault if his team does not produce like they should. KG is still going for great numbers, it's not like the "New NBA" has slowed him down.

I am giving you to example of players who play on very weak teams. KGs team has depth Hassel, Davis, McCants and yet he was unable to lead thi team. I won't go into records cause it is knownt he WOlves tanked the last 10 games for there pick. Sure KG put up huge number as was the number one option but he didn't win. He didn't make his teammates better, He didn't take over games, KG is one of the best, if not the best Post player in the NBA. Yet he watched the playoffs. Kobe started the season on a weaker team then KG, but he was able to carry his team into the playoffs. He made his teammates better. A wing player was able to do something a post player wasn't. This year the Rockets went 34 - 48. There two stars one a Post one a Wing. When Yoa played the team was 27 - 30. When TMac played they were 27 - 20. Which had a bigger impact on there team.


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