Lebron craters the apg and assist % of his teammates

[3ball]

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In the picture below, weakside 3-point shooters (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Joakim Noah doesn't leave #20 Mozgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders to contest Lebron.






Otoh, the 80's and 90's didn't shoot 3-pointers like today's game - those eras didn't have shooters on the weakside (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders.. With all 5 defenders on the strongside and multiple defenders already standing where Joakim Noah flooded to, floods weren't necessary:





Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders were already in closer proximity and the rotations weren't necessary.

Spacing and defensive movement offset each other, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. Excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004, ORtg has ranged between 105-108 since 1980, including an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).
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[Smoke117]

You hate lebron...we get iiiiiiiit. Stop beating this dead horse into dust.

[3ball]

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[COLOR="DarkRed"]Insightful stats regarding MJ from NBA.com's advanced stats[/COLOR]



[COLOR="Navy"]Here are stats linked to NBA.com's advanced stat pages that show old MJ carried a larger load during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs than Shaq's 2000-2002 runs:[/COLOR]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...34&postcount=1



[COLOR="Navy"]Here's more linked stats that show old MJ carried a larger load during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs than prime Lebron's 2012 & 2013 runs:[/COLOR]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...71&postcount=1



[COLOR="Navy"]Here's more linked stats that show old MJ scored a higher proportion of team points while on the floor than every year of Lebron's career:[/COLOR]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1&postcount=48



[COLOR="Navy"]Here's linked stats for prime vs. prime - Jordan's 6-year prime (1988-1993) to Lebron's 6-year prime (2009-2014):[/COLOR]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...0&postcount=35



[COLOR="Navy"]Here's a comparison of overall stats for MJ and Lebron's entire careers:[/COLOR]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1&postcount=57

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[Hey Yo]

You hate lebron...we get iiiiiiiit. Stop beating this dead horse into dust.

Plus he's quite jealous and fearful of him. That's why he goes through great lengths to try to downplay LeBron's greatness and prop up guys like Shumpert, Delonte', Mo and reject J.R Smith.

[TripleA]

.. It's not my fault no one can explain why Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love's assists went way down alongside Lebron, while Pippen's went up alongside MJ (and down when MJ was gone).

I can explain it though (see thread cliffs above).
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You have exposed yourself as a troll get out of here.

[LikeABosh]

Yea, he's ball dominant point forward. Amazing discovery

[Gileraracer]

That is why he will be 1.5/7 soon

[warriorfan]

C'mon guys, we are having a mature basketball discussion here.

[3ball]

Yea, he's ball dominant point forward. Amazing discovery

He's a point forward who significantly reduces the APG and assist % of his teammates, including Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love.. Not surprisingly, all of his TEAMS have low assist frequency:


POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST (HIGHER NUMBER MEANS LESS PASSING)


2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = [COLOR="red"]4.18[/COLOR]
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = [COLOR="Red"]4.05[/COLOR]
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = [COLOR="Red"]3.94[/COLOR]
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.56[/COLOR]
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = [COLOR="red"]4.55[/COLOR]
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = [COLOR="Red"]4.08[/COLOR]
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.51[/COLOR]
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.72[/COLOR]


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.74[/COLOR]
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.45[/COLOR]
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.56[/COLOR]
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.40[/COLOR]
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.54[/COLOR]
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.59[/COLOR]
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = [COLOR="Blue"]4.09[/COLOR]


2015 GSW:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 98.3/27.4 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.59[/COLOR]
2014 Spurs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 95.0/25.2 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.77[/COLOR]
2011 Mavs:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 91.3/23.8 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.84[/COLOR]
2007 Spurs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 89.8/22.1 = [COLOR="Magenta"]4.06[/COLOR]

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.43[/COLOR]
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.47[/COLOR]

Source: basketball-reference.com


Forwards are normally high-assisted players where teammates assist them a lot.. They aren't low-assisted, point guards like Lebron who score all by themselves.. Lebron's presence as an EXTRA low-assisted player (in addition to the PG) that teammates rarely get to assist/toss a dime to, reduces the TEAM'S assist frequency and obviously the assists of individual teammates.

The statistical reality is that Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator (in addition to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking and prevents the best brand of basketball - equal-opportunity offense - which all the great teams use (90's Bulls, Spurs, Kerr's Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.
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[3ball]

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[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR][COLOR="Navy"]NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR](all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)[/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"].......................[/COLOR]Midrange Efficiency .

M Jordan. 1997:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 48.9%.. 588/1202

Westbrook 2016:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.9%.. 164/445
Westbrook 2016:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 42.4%.. 129/304

D Wade.. 2006:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 38.4%.. 174/403
D Wade.. 2012:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 39.5%.. 115/291
D Wade.. 2013:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 38.9%.. 144/370
D Wade.. 2016:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 36.4%.. 143/393

Derozan. 2016:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 37.5%.. 183/488

Butler. 2016:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 35.9%.. 113/315

Lebron.. 2004:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 33.2%.. 183/551
Lebron.. 2005:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 36.0%.. 217/602
Lebron.. 2006:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 38.4%.. 242/630
Lebron.. 2007:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 35.1%.. 204/581
Lebron.. 2008:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 36.4%.. 185/508
Lebron.. 2009:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 36.8%.. 193/525
Lebron.. 2010:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 38.8%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2011:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 44.6%.. 217/487
Lebron.. 2012:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 42.3%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2013:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 43.2%.. 174/403
Lebron.. 2014:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 38.5%.. 126/327
Lebron.. 2015:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 37.0%.. 127/343
Lebron.. 2016:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 37.1%.. 96/259


[COLOR="DarkRed"]None of these guys are anywhere NEAR the shooter Jordan was.. [/COLOR]

Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had well-documented, goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over Lebron, Westbrook and company..



[COLOR="White"]............................[/COLOR]5-9 feet............... 10-14 feet............. 15-19 feet.........Overall Midrange

M Jordan. 1997:[COLOR="Blue"][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 49.2%.. 62/126...... 51.5%... 240/466..... 49.5%.. 294/594..... 48.9%.. 588/1202[/COLOR]

Westbrook 2016:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 46.1%.. 47/102...... 41.9%.... 88/210..... 40.9%.... 72/176..... 42.4%... 129/304

D Wade.. 2016:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 40.0%.. 82/205...... 33.7%.... 57/169..... 34.8%.. 116/307..... 37.4%... 174/465

Derozan. 2016:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 41.8%.. 71/170...... 42.5%.... 96/226...... 38.9%.. 129/332..... 38.0%... 211/555

Butler. 2016:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 36.7%... 29/79....... 36.9%.... 41/111...... 37.9%... 78/206...... 36.8%... 138/375

Lebron.. 2016:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]38.1%.. 43/113...... 33.3%..... 33/99...... 42.4%.... 64/151...... 35.1%... 118/357







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[kshutts1]

Multiple threads saying the same thing (your specialty) and you refuse to acknowledge the following point...

Consider the type of offense ran by all players.

Pippen played in the triangle, an offense whose purpose is to move the ball and allow, more or less, equal opportunity. Pippen's stats (aside from assists), with and without Jordan, are nearly identical. This is because Pippen was playing within a relatively constrictive offense. He took the same amount of shots, made the same amount, at the same percentage.

His assists took a dive because he replaced an GOAT tier talent with a D league talent. Honestly, the difference is, literally, one assist per game. I would wager all of the money I will make in my life that Pippen got X assists passing to Jordan, and (X - 1+) assists passing to Myers because of scoring-ability differences in the two. That would be LITERALLY the difference.

All of the other players played in a ball-dominant offense that featured a centerpiece. They were the center piece. Of course their numbers will be higher when they are the centerpiece than when they are not.

Please try to refute what I said, in particular the bolded portions.

[Hey Yo]

Two things the stats show us:

1) Lebron's presence significantly lowers the APG and assist percentage of his teammates, as seen with Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love.

2) Since he reduces the assist rate of his teammates, it's no surprise that virtually all of his TEAMS have very low assist frequency.

Bosh with Toronto, lowest assist avg. for a year 1.0....with Miami 1.1

Love with Minny, (not counting rookie year) lowest 1.5.......with Cleveland 2.4

Kyrie lowest w/o LeBron, 5.4.....lowest with 5.2

Mo's lowest (not counting his rookie year) w/o 4.0......with, 4.1

Wade's lowest 4.5....with LeBron 4.6.

So as you can see folks, these players have had their worst statistical assist avg. while playing with LeBron.

[3ball]

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Jordan was a FAR better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet:

[COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR]MJ 1997[COLOR="White"]...................[/COLOR]Curry 2015[COLOR="White"]............ [/COLOR]Curry 2016 [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<--- link to nba.com data[/COLOR]

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2015:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2016:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 42.5%, 200 fga

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[3ball]

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Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:


Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%



Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:


Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%


[COLOR="blue"]Click on Jordan or Pippen for links to source data at basketball-reference.com[/COLOR].
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[3ball]

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[COLOR="darkred"]In the 1991 Finals, MJ guarded Magic Johnson for 14 of the 20 quarters (70%) to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5.. Here's all 5 games in their entirety:[/COLOR]

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c
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