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Old 09-02-2006, 04:23 PM   #13
HALLandOATES
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Quote:
Main thing I was aiming for here was to explain why cats like tmac,kobe would be taken over raja anyways. Sure they’re scorers and you can legitimately use them to make your argument but its not fair putting a matchup between kobe vs raja when kobe does way more than just score.

I know it's not fair. But Kobe is a great perimeter shooter. Yes he does do everthing else better on the floor and has a better basketball IQ but the question thats being asked for the topic is iffy on my side because I doesn't say compare guys with 1 strong side of the players game and the other weak.

Ok lets still use Kobe and ask yourself would you want a Kobe Bryant with

stats are incorrect but thats not the point

a.maximum offensive shooting skills, average to weak defensive skills
30ppg 45%fg 37%3ptfg
b.maximum defensive skills(bruce bowen type), average to weak offensive skills
8ppg 38%fg 24% 3ptfg

Do the same with Ray Allen

a.maximum offensive shooting skills, average to weak defense
25ppg 46%fg 40%3pt fg%
b.maximum defensive skills, average to weak offesnive shooting skills
7ppg 38%fg 25%3pt fg%

I would take the offensive minded player every time. 100 times out of 100.

Quote:
So anyways Raja vs Ray Allen…but lets say allen is absent…sonics will still find a way to put points…I mean just because Ray Allen scores 25 pts a night doesn’t mean that sonics will score 25 pts less on a given night because of his absence. However, Raja being absent for a game will indeed affect the suns perimeter D, and it will affect the sonics offense too not having allen..but other players will step in and get points…not as effieciently and not in bunches but all in all, they wont have that perimeter defender to give them the edge.


They will find away to put up points yes. They'd probaly make up for about half of the points he scored and shoot it a a low percentage and probaly wouldn't win very many games. Take Bowen off the Spurs and they'd still win there fair share of games. You would probaly say of course because Ray Allen is the better all rounded player.

Lets compare attributes of the two players by rating them from 1-10 so i can fairly match a player up to another. This is not going off topic because you keep saying its unfair to compare guys like Kobe to Raja in aspects of who is better or whatnot.

outside/permeter shooting defense
Bowen 5 9
Allen 9 5

There's other catergoires of course . All the intangibles like going for loose balls,picks ect.. ok thats one. The other big one is Ray Allen having the ball in his hands alot. Bruce doesn't get that one. But lets say he does and he feeds players just as much a Ray getting the 4 assits Ray does(Bruce only gets around 1and a half).

After Bruce having

-the ball in his hands as much as Ray
-doing all the intangibles just as good as Ray
and still having that great perimeter defense I still wouldn't take him over Ray because Ray's offense is still so much more valuble then Bowens defense.


Another fair matchup would be a guy with the poorest defense and great shooting like Kyle Korver would be taken oevr a guy like Shandon Anderson(even if he was young), who has great defense and poor offense everytime.


Quote:
No, that’s not what I mean. But tell me something…most fans, would they want to see a scoring battle between kobe and tmac or would they want to see a pistons v. spurs matchup. That’s my point, defensive players aren’t stars but this doesn’t make them less needed

True. But I didn't say them not being all-stars doesn't make them less needed. They're less needed then a great shooter from the outside iis what i'm saying.They'e not all stars because the All-Star game is about what is most important part of the NBA and that is Scoring and Shooting. If defense was the most important part of the game and it was important to the extent of defense then we would have more defenders in all-star games. Don't get me wrong, defense is important but not as important as scoring. We've probaly seen more perimeter shooters in all star games with average to weak skills on defensive end then we have just defenders with average to weak offensive skills.




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You are dismissing something here. Defensive perimeter players don’t only prevent points. They ruin the opposition’s flow..they target ball movement up top which limits their opponents offense.

I didn't dimiss this, I agree with it completely. But the offensive shooter does things like this . Frees guys up like I said, draws double teams and could ruin a whole defensive stretegy.


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Kobe may get 40 but he may be shooting a bad FG% and could end up isolating teammates. You say perimeter scorers do change more then just shooting the ball, but most of the time, it is not their specialty…most players that can work off the double team and cause havoc anywhere they go on the court are superstars that are well rounded at everything..or else every scorer in the league would avg 6+ assts and be superstar. But a defensive player has one thing on his mind, target the ball and target the player…that is their job, that is what he’ll do…in today’s game, what separates superstars from scorers is how they fight the double team, setting up teammates, driving the lane, etc…


You can't compare indivual games. Bowen might be having a bad defenseive night verses Kobe and Kobe just shakes him off everytime. He's done it before.

and yes perimeter shooters do turn into superstars and get well rounded because of the attribute of shooting outside. . It frees up there guys and sometimes causing them to yesss.. average more assits. Thats how they'e born. If you can shoot the ball it turns all other parts of you game better, gives you more options and yes...gives you better stats.


Quote:
The point is that there has been championship teams that didn’t have a big time scorer but in this case rather three good scorers…but each had a shutdown perimeter defender whether its tayshaun or bowen.

Theres also has been chamionship teams without shutdown defenders on the perimeter. Los Angeles Lakers of 2000 didn't have a shutdown defender in Kobe Bryant yet and they still won. All those teams you pointed out also had 3-5 great shooters from the outside as well. Well you say Lakers of 2000 were much better then there opponents for that to matter. Well the same could be said for the Pistons beating the Lakers in 2004.


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Im not agreeing with which is more important…I am saying that Ray Allen is a better overall player that Bruce Bowen..but I would much rather have Bruce Bowen working on lebron or tmac than having ray allen trying to match them point for point. I mean, look at sonics, no perimeter D whatsoever, where have they gotten..what has ray allen’s 25 pts done?..what has shard’s 20 pts done? Now look at bulls…led by a less scoring backcourt…but better perimeter D.

Game by game you would want Bowen to be on your team verses Lebron if you already had a Ray Allen.But Bowen he has no offensive game so he's a huge liabilty and i wouldn't risk that. Atleast Ray has a good chance of matching LeBron rather then having Bowen out there for 40 mintues not scoring much at all.

Quote:
You cant always rely on outscoring your opponents, defense will always be the constant that wins games. and with the increasing trend of scoring nowadays and the new handchcking rules...the game thrives for perimeter defenders.

You can't always rely on defense as well. Look at team USA. They thought they put togther a great defensive squad. In the end there defense hit a low and they could match the outside shooting of Greece causing them to loss. Again the had good perimeter defenders(Battier,Melo) and it just didn't work.Thats a time when even good perimeter shooters couldn't stop great shooters.

Look at then Denver Nuggets. Good defensive team but had NO outside shootng whatso ever. Did they get far? No. They have great defense so why should they look for a shooter? So they can get deeper in the playoffs and they know the can't get any deeper without a scorer. They acquired Evans,Patterson to even add to there defense but still hit a wall.Pistos of 2004 atleast had 2-3 great perimeter shooters. Else they wouldn't have got to were they were just on there solid defense alone
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