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Old 10-11-2012, 09:08 AM   #299
7-time NBA All-Star
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Originally Posted by Shep
yeh so if their success was 1 lebron gets 0.8, the other 0.2 was made up by a number of players. makes sense.

Cleveland were one of the 4 best defensive teams and 3 best rebounding teams, that's primarily how they won because they were a poor offensive team.

all were better than filth like atkins and okur. atkins could only manage 65 games, and shot 36 percent. okur was only worth 19 minutes in his 72 games, shot 43% from the field and contributed only 6.9 points and 4.7 rebounds.

at Garrity being better than Okur. it's an easy comparison since both are big men. Garrity was a one-dimensional 3 point shooting big man, while Okur could also shoot outside, but was a solid post defender and rebounder as well. He only played 19 mpg since Detroit was so deep.

Atkins did have a terrible shooting season, I'll give you that. But he was still a quality backup point guard, Definitely better than Jacque Vaughn. at the 65 game comment.

Detroit was the deepest and most talented team in the East.

bryant was 9th then 19th, and wade was 4th.

Kobe has never been as low as 19th as a starter, the only season he's started that it's even a reasonable statement is '99. He's only been 9th or lower as a starter in '99, '00 and '05.

Kobe was clearly the best player in the league in 2006. I don't see much of a case for anyone else. There's no way he should have won 45 games in the West with that cast, his only teammate that was good was Lamar Odom, and he was inconsistent, and didn't play that well until the second half.

After a season of carrying the team with his scoring as successfully as you could expect at his coaches request, he did the opposite and become a playmaker and even somewhat of a decoy in the 1st round vs Phoenix once it was best for the team. It almost resulted in an upset of the Suns, and Kobe's game-winner in game 4 as well as his 50 point game that would have closed them out if not for the 3 by Tim Thomas.

Aside from being the best scorer in the league, Kobe showed at times that he was a fine defensive player. He would often step up and take the challenge of guarding the opposing team's best perimeter player such as Wade, Carter, Allen or T-Mac, and had some memorable defensive games.

There's nobody else who could have done what Kobe did. He was clearly the most skilled player in the league, and put those skills to work. His individual play resulted in his team probably overachieving more than any other team relative to their talent level.

Name 1 other perimeter player who could have made the Lakers this good.

In 2007, there was one player who has a case over Kobe and it's Tim Duncan. But Kobe was still the consensus best player and for good reason. He was very close to the 2006 version, except worse defensively, and not as capable of carrying the team for an entire season. But that historic scoring ability returned, and he did it better than anyone in the league was capable of when his coach asked him. But spent much of the season excelling as a facilitator. With the Lakers injuries and talent, that team had no business making the playoffs.

As for Wade? The only player better than Wade in '09 was Lebron, and the only other player with a case was Kobe. No other player can be brought up vs Wade, who clearly peaked that year. He was still in his athletic prime, but had easily the best shooting season of his career, shooting mid-range jumpers more frequently and more accurately than ever, and becoming a legit 3 point threat for the first time. This improved shooting allowed Wade to mix up his game far more and be more under control. There wasn't as much as that falling down every play bullshit. Though Wade was still one of the league's most aggressive and athletic guards. As a follow up to Wade being more under control, we saw him cut down on his turnovers greatly, and this was one of only 2 full seasons when Wade had even a solid mid-range jumper(along with 2006). Plus, Wade had easily his best defensive season.

It's one of those rare seasons when a player is literally at their best at both ends and in every aspect of the game. This rarely happens, and one of the few other examples is Shaq in 2000.

bryant gets the slight edge over tmac here

I think it's the other way around, but since it is a slight edge, I take no issue with you choosing Kobe.

apart from 1 bad team, the rest of them were tough games to win, especially since 2 were against the league dominating san antonio spurs with peak tim duncan, and slava medvedenko being the second offensive option on his team. kobe did everything a top 5 player could possibly do.

The schedule overall was pretty average. A mix of good, bad and average teams.

15 games is not 82 games, so no comparison can be made here. bryant led his team to a 50-32 record.

Which is an underwhelming record considering he played with Shaq who was still in his late prime, or close to it, and the other key players from a championship team.

top 2 point guard? nash wasn't even a top 4 point guard, finley wasn't even top 22 in the league. nowitzki, however, was top 6, was easily dallas' best player in both the regular season and playoffs, led his mavs to the best record in the nba and conference finals, was top 3 most valuable, beat 50 win portland in the wcsf averaging 29.9ppg, 8.9rpg, 1.6apg, 1.6spg, and 0.6bpg on 52%fg, 56%3p, and 90%ft, and beat 59 win sacramento in the wcsf averaging 20.7ppg, 14.3rpg, 2.9apg, 0.9spg, and 1.3bpg on 45%fg, 41%3p, and 88%ft

at Nash not being a top 4 point guard. Who said Finley was top 22? He's a damn good 3rd best player.

Dirk was a great player with a great season and playoff run, but nothing on paper changes the fact that he wasn't as good as T-Mac at this time. Nobody thought so.

Look at it this way. T-Mac was clearly the better scorer at this time, in fact, arguably the best scorer in the league rivaled by only Shaq and perhaps Kobe. T-mac was also the best passer who wasn't a point guard, and no worse of a defender, in fact, I'd say better than Dirk at this stage. You can't tell me Dirk's rebounding was enough to make up for this. 3 more rebounds per game from a power forward vs a guard simply isn't enough.

billups was a career journeyman who had barely started over half of his games at point guard and scored 12 points on 10 field goal attempts.

In this season, he averaged over 16 points on less than 12 field goal attempts.

rip was nice, but a downgrade from stackhouse the previous year. robinson was 36 years old, averaged less than 4 rebounds per game, shot the ball 12 times to get his 12 points, and shot less than 40% from the field, and corliss williamson was nowhere near 6th man of the year the previous season.

Stackhouse was more skilled and talented than Rip individually, but Rip was a better guy to fit in with other talent. He did most of his damage without the ball, took smart shots, wasn't selfish, and certainly didn't have any of the chucking tendencies that Stackhouse did.

Robinson was a good all around player, he did still have scoring and shooting ability and he was a good defender. He was never a great rebounder.

Corliss Williamson was still a very solid scorer.

camby was very close, separated only by the smallest of margins. the magic and rockets were very much the same, given the same system and coach. drew gooden almost was as good as yao in the playoffs.

Gooden was nowhere near Yao in the playoffs. That, along with your overrating of Camby is a perfect example of why you have to put down the stat-sheet for a minute.

who cares what happened in his first year in miami (he was still the best player in the league by a huge margin). in '07 he showed enough to be the best player in the league outside of tim duncan, as i have already proven time and time again.

He wasn't the best in the league by a huge margin in 2011. I'd probably rank him as the best player in 2011 as well, but Dwight Howard was definitely up there.

You have never come close to proving Lebron was the 2nd best player in '07. You haven't come close because it's flat out wrong. I've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he's absolutely no better than 3rd.

And the reason I brought up Lebron's weakness playing off the ball in 2011 because you excused his ball-dominance in 2007 as a necessity, I brought up 2011 because he was now in a position where playing without the ball was best for the team at times with the most talented trio in years, and his inability to do so was exposed.

better than losing in the first round.

Not if you play worse than the player who loses in the 1st round.

ppg + popular notions + excuses = shaqattacks reasonings for wrong rankings.

Try again. Your rankings have proven to be far more ridiculous. You often end up with an insane variation between players from year to year, even when they play at a pretty comparable level.

I have yet to do anything as ridiculous as rank 2000 Kobe 2nd best. And you don't even show any consistency with this overrating of championship 2nd options when you have 2006 Shaq, a superior impact player to 2000 Kobe 15th or some shit in 2006. And, 2002 Kobe, who was vastly superior to the 2000 version ends up 3rd on your list(which was correct), but somehow 2000 Kobe is 2nd?
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