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Old 10-17-2012, 02:41 AM   #37
Frank Foley
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by lakerfreak
According to internet sources, this hand checking rule was implemented 2007 so get back to me on that if its inaccurate.

Inaccurate.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

Rules were implemented 2004-2005. His shooting percentage, which had been in decline for two years during his prime, suddenly shot upward for the next three years.

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I did say you can't compare different eras, but I was also speaking about the evolvement of the game. The "moves" are advanced as these new guys come in and find different ways to humiliate defenses, and coaching is also different.
If you put for example, a doctor today, back in time in the 1800's, that doctor would have put all of those types of "treatments" to shame with his advanced knowledge, experience, and technology.

My favorite counter to this argument is something a poster named psileas once did: my 10 year old cousin (who knows how to use a computer and can use modern technology) versus Einstein (who can't even use the internet). We can't project how one would do in a different era. All we can judge is how the players did against their peers. I could do the same thing and say Wilt would average 50 ppg in today's era with no dominant interior scorers over 7 feet tall, greater emphasis on protecting stars, and higher usage rates for individual players. I could, but I'd get laughed off this board.


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Don't know why you're focusing on this. Simply a matter of opinion. Magic continued to win without Kareem. Won more championships, therefore to me, his career was more successful. I did not say one negative thing about Kareem. If you ask fans all around the U.S. who is their top ten, I guarantee you not one list would come close to another. This also sounds like you don't think Magic has a run on being greatest of all time. Accomplishing so much in a short career always makes one wonder what "could have" happened.

1) He didn't win a single title without Kareem. 2) He won fewer championships than Kareem. 3) I didn't say you were criticizing the guy, but I do object to the simple "Magic had the better career" statement, as if it were self-evident. To tell you how great Kareem's career was, I wouldn't have said anything if you have reversed the statement and simply stated Kareem was better than Magic, without any explanation.

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When I think unguardable, I think of someone who has many options. If Kobe had one side of the court completely shut down, he has about 4 different backup plans of how he can get the shot off. Someone like Magic Johnson on the other hand, would not shoot if he had no possible alternative to score. Rather he'd wait until the next possession, or simply use his amazing court vision to get someone else to receive the glory, which is a great thing btw. What I am saying is, as a one on one player, Kobe made so many difficult shots over many defenders. It didn't matter if 3 guys were on Kobe. It wasn't ever a guarantee that the 3 defenders would come away successful. There was always that doubt of "I don't think we can stop him".

Riiight. Three defenders on Kobe? Please show me evidence of this. The stuff about zone defenses is overblown. As Chuck Klosterman said, Larry Bird played zone defense his entire career. The defensive schemes have grown, mind you, but the truly great players got theirs regardless of what was thrown at them.

Magic was no slouch when it came to scoring, by the way. Look at how he played during the 1991 Finals (I'm pointing out a series where Pippen allegedly shut him down), and see how well he did against prime MJ, arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time. Look at how he beasted MJ down on the block, how well he passed out of double teams, how he made even MJ require help in checking a dude.

Kobe's had his moments, but as great as his skillset is, it doesn't necessarily translate to his overall effectiveness on the court. To give you one example, Kobe's shot between four and six(!) threes a game since 2005. And he shoots about 34% on them. The last three years he's been in the low 30's percentage wise, which is straight bad, and yet he's continued to shoot them. That's bad basketball over the course of several seasons. Magic may not have been able to do all of the individual things Kobe could, but he knew his limits, and rose to (IMO) a level higher than Kobe's despite those limitations. Just because a guy is capable of draining 35-foot threes in a game doesn't mean he should continue to shoot them.

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I don't think inconsistency is a word that should describe Kobe. Sure he had bad shooting nights. But who nowadays didn't have bad shooting nights? Even with a bad shooting nights, he commanded double teams which created opportunities for others. If he wasn't scoring, he did other things. Look at his bad shooting against the celtics in game 7 of the NBA finals. He came away with 15 rebounds, and that was significant because the team who led in rebounds every game, won the game.

Good points. And they all apply to Magic, who could (and did) dominate a game without scoring a single basket.

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If Pau Gasol was an elite center/forward, why didn't he lead the grizzlies to any playoff wins? 0-12 his first three tries.

If Kobe was the greatest Laker of all time, why did he go 4-8 (with one missed playoffs) without Shaq or Gasol? You know the answer: the team around the player matters. Pau had a better team around him than Kobe did, but he also played against far tougher teams in the playoffs. You take your pick: the Duncan Spurs in the middle of a championship run, or the Nash Suns without STAT?


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He made Kobe a lot better because of how smart he was, but Kobe overall made him the better player. Phil Jackson overall made Pau the better player. They helped him get over his "soft" reputation when needed most. Improved from 14 ppg to 24 ppg in both finals series against the celtics. Drew, like you said, to a far lesser extent. Odom wasn't elite but he was the best asset to have. The point is, Bynum Odom Pau probably don't add up to a Shaquille O'Neal in his prime, which is debatable as well. That being said, Kobe won without Shaq. It was a big deal at the time. It sure as heck shut the media up lol.

My point wasn't that Pau by himself was super amazing, btw. As you caught onto, the three-headed Pau/Lamar/Drew monster was miles beyond what any other team in the league had. Individually, they were all good, but it was the fact that three huge, skilled dudes were on the same team that really shifted the scales in our favor. Kobe was his usual, awesome self--the team around him changed. That was my point.



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He probably did, but it wasn't nearly as much as the "drama" that we'd seen guys like Kobe go through.

Sure, in the pre-internet age. It should be mentioned that Kobe brings a lot of the drama onto himself. That thing in Colorado happened because he had srgery on his knee there without going through the proper channels or even letting his team know. The criticism about being a crappy teammate occurs because, by all accounts, Kobe's either a relentless perfectionist who demands the same of his teammates, or a complete asshole who verbally murders those who aren't as good as he is.

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Fair enough in regards to the holy trinity of players. Now let me ask you, what did Kobe not do yet?

I think you alluded to this earlier in the thread. It's not so much about what Kobe didn't do, but what Magic did do. He may not have had Kobe's longevity (which I personally don't factor as strongly), but he impacted games at a higher level IMO than Kobe did.

Last edited by Frank Foley : 10-17-2012 at 02:46 AM.
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