If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

[NumberSix]

LEBRON JAMES IS NOT AS GD AS WILT

Neither is Jordan.

[millwad]

Maybe, but here's the thing, players like Tommy Heinsohn, Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, and Bailey Howell are legit Hall of Famers no matter where they would have played (and Russell played with no fewer than 3 of them). This is before you count great role players like KC Jones, Tom Sanders, Willie Naulis, Larry Siegfried, and Don Nelson. There's a reason those Celtic teams were great and that's because they had great players (outside of Russell) and not only that, but there was a level of consistency in terms of turnover, which allowed a great collection of talent to get even better through familiarity.

I never said that Russell didn't play with fine players, I'm just saying that Wilt played with fine players as well.

Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

HOF:ers Wilt played with:


Jerry West
Hal Greer
Elgin Baylor
Gail Goodrich
Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Nate Thurmond
Chet Walker
Billy Cunningham

All-stars Wilt played with:

Luke Jackson
Guy Rodgers
Woody Sauldsberry
Tom Meschery
Larry Costello
Red Kerr
Willie Naulls
Flynn Robinson
Bill Bridges

[Psileas]

He has a good case for GOAT already, despending of course on what you ask for. After all, Jordan himself had been called widely the GOAT by the time he had won his 2nd title and he was probably already the most popular choice when he got his 3rd. I definitely don't think Jordan was more accomplished than Wilt back then (especially after only 2 rings) and that whoever wasn't hypocritical enough should have Wilt as a top GOAT candidate at least up to then - and I don't see why not up to now.

I don't know how many championships Wilt would have won for the Celtics. More than 2 is a safe bet. Maybe not as many as Russell, since Russell was the ultimate chamistry player, but, you know what, it wouldn't matter, because Russell wouldn't have won anywhere near 11 either and the "11" standard wouldn't even exist. Even if Russell had played for another quality franchise like the Hawks, even if he still held a title advantage, say, 7 vs 5, things would be seen in a different light. If Wilt held a title advantage, even the most minimum one, I don't think Russell would have any serious case over him. If he held an advantage anywhere close to 11-2 (which wouldn't be impossible if Russell played for a crappy team and Wilt managed to play alongside a peak Havlicek and a quickly emerging Jo Jo White in the early 70's), well, there wouldn't be much left to be said.

[CavaliersFTW]

I never said that Russell didn't play with fine players, I'm just saying that Wilt played with fine players as well.

Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

HOF:ers Wilt played with:


Jerry West
Hal Greer
Elgin Baylor
Gail Goodrich
Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Nate Thurmond
Chet Walker
Billy Cunningham

All-stars Wilt played with:

Luke Jackson
Guy Rodgers
Woody Sauldsberry
Tom Meschery
Larry Costello
Red Kerr
Willie Naulls
Flynn Robinson
Bill Bridges

...give context for every one of these players - and how long they played with Wilt and how old/young/healthy they were at the times, and give the same context for Russell's HOF teammates and the scale tips in Russell's favor

[Flash31]

Who says hes not
ESPN
And stars who played in the 80s and 90s with Jordan

Wilt is GOAT depending on person

the untouchable 4 who can be called GOAT

Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Jordan

[millwad]

...give context for every one of these players - and how long they played with Wilt and how old/young/healthy they were at the times, and give the same context for Russell's HOF teammates and the scale tips in Russell's favor

Read this again;

Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

And it wasn't a big research between Wilt's teammates compared to Russell's but it completely destroys the nonsense Jlauber has been spamming about a la Wilt's "horrible" teammates and how they destroyed his legacy. Plenty of the mentioned players played with Wilt during their primes.

[305Baller]

He would probably have more than 10 championships as the man. He had some of the best stats in the history of the game.

Yeah but legend had it that Russel's defense and team-play was a major factor in the Celtics dynamic. Wilt was more of the one-man force. But you never know...

[steve]

I never said that Russell didn't play with fine players, I'm just saying that Wilt played with fine players as well.

Wilt played with a total of 9 HOF:ers during his career and 9 All-Stars. Yes, not all of them played with Wilt during their prime but that's a very remarkable number of talented players. 18 HOF/All-stars.....

HOF:ers Wilt played with:


Jerry West
Hal Greer
Elgin Baylor
Gail Goodrich
Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Nate Thurmond
Chet Walker
Billy Cunningham

All-stars Wilt played with:

Luke Jackson
Guy Rodgers
Woody Sauldsberry
Tom Meschery
Larry Costello
Red Kerr
Willie Naulls
Flynn Robinson
Bill Bridges

Although you're leaving out the fact that he never played with more than two of these players at a time (the Hall of Famers that is) and of the All-Stars you listed, only Rodgers, Jackson, and Costello played with him for more than one full season and only Rodgers and Jackson could be said to have played with him in their prime's. Chamberlain's teams were talented and good, but it's not accurate to say and they even approached the level of talent and depth the Celtics had, especially from '59 to '66.

[Nashty]

No.

Just read this and you'll know why.

[URL="http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/15/its-all-about-the-ws-bill-russell.html"]It

[livinglegend]

Who says hes not
ESPN
And stars who played in the 80s and 90s with Jordan

Wilt is GOAT depending on person

the untouchable 4 who can be called GOAT

Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Jordan

I actually have Russell as the GOAT. I guess it changes from 1 person to another. It s the media that has created the allusion that Jordan is the ultimate GOAT because it s harder to compare today s players to Wilt and Russell .They are not many video footages of them, also because the game has evolved a lot.

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Nashty]No.

Just read this and you'll know why.

[URL="http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/15/its-all-about-the-ws-bill-russell.html"]It

[fpliii]

LAZERUSS - A little OT, but can you talk a bit about the 63-64 SFW season? As I said above, it's one of the best defensive seasons in league history (#14 in my files). I've gathered what I could from SI, a few biographies, stats, and articles from other cities (don't have access to SF Chronicle papers at the moment), but I still don't feel I have enough information. Not to hyperbolize, but I think Wilt was playing close to the same level as he did during his MVP threepeat seasons. Incredible year it seems.

[teddytwelvetoes]

The Celtics would have won less championships if Wilt replaced Russell

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Nashty]No.

Just read this and you'll know why.

[URL="http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/15/its-all-about-the-ws-bill-russell.html"]It

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS - A little OT, but can you talk a bit about the 63-64 SFW season? As I said above, it's one of the best defensive seasons in league history (#14 in my files). I've gathered what I could from SI, a few biographies, stats, and articles from other cities (don't have access to SF Chronicle papers at the moment), but I still don't feel I have enough information. Not to hyperbolize, but I think Wilt was playing close to the same level as he did during his MVP threepeat seasons. Incredible year it seems.

Since I was going to cover this, your post came at a good time.

As I noted above, the 63-64 Warriors were not a very good team. They were basically the same roster that had gone 31-49 the year before. True, they added rookie Nate Thurmond, but he was a center playing out of position at the forward slot. Furthermore, he only played part-time, and only shot .395 from the field.

Their second best player was Tom Meschery, who averaged 13.5 ppg, 7.7 rpg, and shot .458 from the field. Aside from Al Attles, who seldom shot but shot .452, and backup Kenny Sears, who shot .442, they did not have one single player shooting better than Nate's .395. Guy Rodgers, who was arguably the worst shooter in NBA history, shot .365. Their other starter, Wayne Hightwoer shot .385, and their first backup Gary Phillips shot .370.

Hannum did get the team to play better defense, and articles at the time mention that Wilt's defense had become better as well. His DWin Shares was at 10.6, which is the highest non-Russell season in NBA history.

Again, somehow Wilt willed that team to a 48-32 record. Keep that record in mind. And how about his entire post-season, covering 12 games. In a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg and on .420 shooting, Chamberlain averaged 34.7 on .543 shooting (as well as 25.2 rpg.)

Wilt had a health scare early in the 64-65 season, and even the Warrior team doctors feared that he was a walking time-bomb. With Wilt at nowhere near 100% at the time, and the Warrior roster playing back to '63 levels, SF plunged to a horrible record (going 10-27 even with Wilt.)

Fearing the worst, they shipped Wilt off to Philly at mid-season, for three players, including Paul Neumann. And while they had gone 10-27 with Chamberlain, they would go 7-36 without him.

This is where we see Wilt's true impact at it's peak.

Chamberlain came to a stumbling Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before. And once again, they had to shell out three players and a boatload of cash to acquire Chamberlain.

With Wilt, the Sixers went 21-20, and finished the campaign at 40-40. They then trounced the 48-32 Royals in the first round of the playoffs. And, in the EDF's, and playing against a Celtic team that had gone 62-18, and was at it's zenith, Chamberlain put up a 30 ppg, 31 rpg, .555 FG% series, including a game seven of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds, in a 110-109 loss. Once again, Chamberlain was nearly sigle-handedly carrying a team past the greatest dynasty in professional team sports history.

Back to the Warriors. They would go 17-63 in that 64-65 season, which enabled them to draft Rick Barry...who would go on to have a HOF career. The Wilt trade also allowed them to move Thurmond to his natural center position. And with Meschery as their third best player, the 65-66 Warriors could still only go 35-45. So, the Warriors basicaly replaced Chamberlain with both Barry and Thurmond, and they could still only go 35-45.

By the 66-67 season, the Warriors added Jeff Mullins (an outstanding scorer in his career), Clyde Lee (probably the premier rebounding PF in his career), and Fred Hetzel (who would average 21 ppg his very next season) to go along with Thurmond, Barry, Neumann, and Meschery.

Think about this: With Barry averaging 35.6 ppg, and Thurmond having the finest season of his career (he would finish #2 in the MVP voting behind Wilt), and with the rest of those players, the Warriors could only go 44-37. Hell, Meschery averaged 11 ppg as their seventh best player. When he was Wilt's second best player, he averaged 13, and yet Chamberlain still led that 63-64 team to a 48-32 record...which was better than what the loaded 66-67 Warriors could achieve without him.

Continued...