Scottie Pippen on LeBron/Jordan

[DuMa]

MJ had 4 years under Dean Smith? i thought he left a year early to play in the NBA? Scottie doesnt know, he just doesnt know.

[Poetry]

He was absolutely a superior rebounder to Bron but I think Brons defense puts him over Barkley

Neither has the edge in my eyes. 'Bron will go down as the better player (due to the individual and team accolades as well as the longevity), but at their peak, based on ability and skill set, i think they're on the same level, especially in terms of impact on the game.

[jstern]

Pipped took a little jab at Lebron's mentality.

I just realized that that's the way that someone who didn't watch Jordan when he was playing might take his comment. So probably a lot of younger people might think that since they're not familiar with Jordan's mentality.

[OldSchoolBBall]

There is something to be said, though, for having the dedication to being the best year in and year out. Lebron has that.

youre straight trolling now lol.

[Dragonyeuw]

He guarded Magic. Obviously you might not count that, but I'm pretty sure he's guarded players like Dennis Johnson, Terry Porter, Kevin Johnson in stretches. Either way, his ability to guard all 5 positions, as well as Pippen's and Marion's, were exaggerated just like Lebron's is now.

Oh yeah, true. I was thinking guys like Stockton, Hardaway, KJ when I made that comment but yeah, you're correct there.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I just realized that that's the way that someone who didn't watch Jordan when he was playing might take his comment. So probably a lot of younger people might think that since they're not familiar with Jordan's mentality.

[QUOTE]But Pippen doesn

[jlip]

It seems as if the litmus test for greatness for basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) is often different from that of fans. While as fans we go back and look at career accomplishments (i.e. how many MVPs, championships, "was he 'the man' for those championships", all star selections, stats titles, etc.), basketball personalities tend to look at the greats and judge by perceived talent and performance. The fact that legend X has 1 more MVP and 2 more rings than legend Y doesn't mean as much to them in the debate.

From the "Jim Boeheim: LeBron James could challenge Michael Jordan for 'best ever' title" thread

I keep saying this, whether one agrees with Van Gundy or not, it's important to understand that when basketball personalities, especially coaches, compare players they are often not talking about career achievements, accolades, or resume's. They are judging according to what they perceive as on- the- court abilities completely devoid of the career accomplishments. To them, there is little difference in abilities between a player with 2 MVPs and one with 4 or a player with 5 rings and a player with 3. At that point, the comparison is extremely subjective and basically contingent on the evaluator's preferences in players.

From the "SVG Says LeBron>Jordan" thread

I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

From the Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said." thread

[guy]

By the way, after everyone went off on Pippen for saying that, didn't he back track his statements and say that he never said Lebron would be better but that he would end up with better numbers? I'm pretty sure he did. Now it sounds like he never backtracked at all.

[jstern]

Dafuq you talkin about?

Jordan had the ultimate alpha male mentality. He was above normal in that sense, but people who never watch Jordan play during his career are going to view Pippen's comment as a put down to Lebron, because they're going to view Jordan's mentality in the same level as other superstars, rather than a super obsessive competitive, will play and win with the flu kind of guy.

Since a lot of people say that Lebron is mentally weak, those who didn't watch Jordan play are going to think that Pippen is saying that Lebron is mentally weak.

[tmacattack33]

Pipped took a little jab at Lebron's mentality.

No. He said his mentality (mental toughness and competitiveness or something in particular) falls short when compared to MJ's.

Well, everyone's would.




That's like if he said that Lebron's jumpshot falls short when compared to Reggie Miller's.

[Pointguard]

Exactly. I don't recall Rodman ever guarding a point guard, but he's guarded the likes of Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Karl Malone, Shaq across the span of his career. And there are very few players of that caliber playing today, especially the center spot. Lebron has the physical size to match up with some of today's centers and PFs because there aren't many true low-post scoring threats now. Put Lebron in the 90's, is he guarding Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, Ewing successfully? There are NO centers of that pedigree anymore, including a healthy Howard and Bynum who at least would be second-tier star centers after the ones I mentioned above.

Its goes both ways. The point guards now are a lot quicker now than they were in Rodman's time. Across the board they are faster and quicker. I give Rodman the bigman advantage tho because they were just better back then.

No player at their own position guards the best players. So when we say guard, we mean at a high level. The best defensive PG isn't stopping Rose for a whole game. Best Center isn't stopping DMC when he's focused. So yeah, Lebron can guard anybody in the league effectively, right now. If Lebron played like Rodman, as a specialist, he's the best there is. There is a possibility that there is no one in the league that he doesn't significantly affect.

[Pointguard]

Originally Posted by jlip
I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

Yeah, I remember you being one of a few that participated in you the definition of GOAT vs GOAT Player. I'll repost the question.

[Dragonyeuw]

1)Its goes both ways. The point guards now are a lot quicker now than they were in Rodman's time. Across the board they are faster and quicker. I give Rodman the bigman advantage tho because they were just better back then.

1)So yeah, Lebron can guard anybody in the league effectively, right now.

1) Of course it goes both ways. But relatively speaking, in terms of today's vs yesteryear's fast PGs, Rodman trying to defend someone like Tim Hardaway or Kevin Johnson would be like Lebron trying to defend Westbrook. Perhaps over a few possessions, but not over the course of the game. That goes for both Rodman then and Lebron now.

2) I didn't really argue otherwise, but that point needs to be further qualified. What I am saying is that Lebron cannot guard every player in the NBA over the course of 48 minutes. For a possession or two or a defensive switch, sure. Now can he do it over 48 minutes if he was a specialist like Rodman and didn't have to worry about all the other things he does? The results would certainly be different, but as fast as Lebron is, I'm having a hard time seeing him defending Westbrook for 48 minutes. Lebron's speed is moreso when he's in the open-court and gathering steam. Defending lightning quick guys in the half-court with crazy first steps and handles, ability to change direction on a dime, and with a lower center of gravity is going to be very difficult for Lebron to do at his size, regardless of his athletic gifts.

[Deuce Bigalow]

LMAO.

4x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP. Stop acting like Kobe is a dominant Finals performer.

We going to act like Kobe didn't have great regular seasons like 06 and 07? Nash and Dirk won the MVP those years, are they better?

In 2007

Nash 2 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Dirk 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Iverson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
KG 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Kobe 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs

We're they ranked higher than Kobe then?

No.

Elgin Baylor 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs
Oscar Robertson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Julius Erving 1 MVP, 0 MVPs
Kevin Garnett 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Charles Barkley 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
David Robinson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
-------
Nash 2 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Rose 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Iverson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs

Nash is better than all those players above?
Rose and Iverson as good as those above?

No.

[Fatstogey]

Wow there is so much wrong with this post, especially the bolded

Your gonna sit here and tell me that Jordan could D up an premier 4? GTFO

You literally know nothing of basketball if hte defense part is what you see. Of course this is why they pay people to coach. Cause most people dont quite see the finer points of the game.

Fact is you watched Jordan as a kid. your opinion is based on nostalgia. JOrdan isnt even as good a scorer as lebron currently is. Forget defense.