Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

[Rubio2Gasol]

I don't disagree with much of your assessment of the Rockets, but they still were running a 4 out/1 in type of offense. Otis obviously wasn't a 3 point shooter, and he rarely even took mid-range jumpers, but he'd often be away from the basket for spacing, and be used in screen/rolls, or he'd cut the basket. He'd get some touches inside as well, but a lot of his points by that point came in the way I described, or from running the floor.

But what's also true is that players such as Thorpe and Kenny Smith took on lesser roles, and didn't utilize their entire skill set to accommodate the offense revolving around Hakeem.

I never called Houston stacked either, but the Shaq/Kobe Lakers weren't either. Those teams relied as heavily on 2 players as any team I've seen. They had a few nice role players on each of the 3 championship teams, but they lacked a 3rd guy near all-star level, were a below average 3 point shooting team(one of the worst in the league in 2000), had some of the worst starting PFs in the league in 2000 and 2002, always had 2, if not 3 players starting who were below average starters at their position, and never had a 3rd scorer except for 2000 with Glen Rice who was past his prime, but even he didn't produce like one in the playoffs, didn't fit in the triangle at all, complained and was a liability defensively.

The team was special because of the duo and such a great coach, but stacked is definitely not the right word. An example of stacked teams would be the Portland and Sacramento teams they beat.

I think Money 23 or someone called them stacked. He's a Jordan homer so it should be expected.

That's a different take from the 4 in 1 out system than I've ever seen. To me it usually involves a 3 pt threat because even if you set up away from the basket or set high picks - dudes have no incentive to cover you. So it was still relatively easy to double Hakeem.

Lakers for me were stacked - they had the two best players in the game for a couple years (something that never really happens). In 2000 they weren't and they honestly got lucky against Portland.

Kenny found his niche being a spot up shooter for that playoff run. That wasn't his game in it's entirety but I don't think he could have been better than he was at the time playing any other role.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think Money 23 or someone called them stacked. He's a Jordan homer so it should be expected.

That's a different take from the 4 in 1 out system than I've ever seen. To me it usually involves a 3 pt threat because even if you set up away from the basket or set high picks - dudes have no incentive to cover you. So it was still relatively easy to double Hakeem.

Lakers for me were stacked - they had the two best players in the game for a couple years (something that never really happens). In 2000 they weren't and they honestly got lucky against Portland.

Kenny found his niche being a spot up shooter for that playoff run. That wasn't his game in it's entirety but I don't think he could have been better than he was at the time playing any other role.

The Rockets before they went small weren't quite a 4 out/1 in the way Orlando was with Dwight, but I consider it a variation, much like the mid 90's Magic, even though they had Grant. Although Grant while not a 3 point shooter, was a mid-range shooter unlike Thorpe, but not a post player.

The Lakers did arguably have the 2 best players in the game at one point(though I personally considered Duncan 2nd) however that's still not stacked to me. Stacked has to do with depth as well and talent throughout your rotation. The Lakers didn't have a 3rd player who was particularly talented individually, much less 4th, 5th and 6th guys like the '02 Kings for example. They did get good contributions from several role players in the 2001 playoffs(Fisher, Fox, Grant and Horry to a lesser extent) but in 2002, the role players didn't do anything outside of Horry and Fox. And again, you couldn't call any of those guys above average starters, and were all probably below average if you look at the other players starting at their positions.

[AlphaWolf24]

Reall Talk....

I remember watching the Bull's dominate in 91'....

It seemed unfair.....because ...

A) You had Michael F'ing Jordan......Hitting cot damn every shot imaginable....

I was like..." Hey we forced MJ Baseline!...we got this Mufaka in check....oh sh!T!!! ( MJ jumps in the air twists his body around 3 defenders and ends up with a F'ing soft azz layup)..what the F*** just happened?"


then like...

"Hey we forced MJ to take a 20' contested Jumper....( He rises up for like 3' off the ground.....swishes that sh!t)..WTF?....( he then hits a fadeaway off a reverse pivot)...Da FUQ?....Now MJ got accurate Fadeaways??"


B)Then you had this Long gangley Mufaka with go go gadget arms.....Pippen was blockin everyones shot....gettin all the damn rebounds.....then shuttin down little PG's....

I was like.........

WTF?......the Bull's got the 2 most dope'est Hard core MF'ers on the same team....

like someone else said.....anyone who saw the Bull's knew they had 2 PITBULLS......MJ might have been the DAD...but they def 2 full grown Game ready PITS!

[The Iron Fist]

Reall Talk....

I remember watching the Bull's dominate in 91'....

It seemed unfair.....because ...


A) You had Michael F'ing Jordan......Hitting cot damn every shot imaginable....

I was like..." Hey we forced MJ Baseline!...we got this Mufaka in check....oh sh!T!!! ( MJ jumps in the air twists his body around 3 defenders and ends up with a F'ing soft azz layup)..what the F*** just happened?"


then like...

"Hey we forced MJ to take a 20' contested Jumper....( He rises up for like 3' off the ground.....swishes that sh!t)..WTF?....( he then hits a fadeaway off a reverse pivot)...Da FUQ?....Now MJ got accurate Fadeaways??"


B)Then you had this Long gangley Mufaka with go go gadget arms.....Pippen was blockin everyones shot....gettin all the damn rebounds.....then shuttin down little PG's....

I was like.........

WTF?......the Bull's got the 2 most dope'est Hard core MF'ers on the same team....



like someone else said.....anyone who saw the Bull's knew they had 2 PITBULLS......MJ might have been the DAD...but they def 2 full grown Game ready PITS!

Back then, everyone thought of them as Dobermans. They were sleek, fast and vicious when need be.

[Money 23]

I think Money 23 or someone called them stacked. He's a Jordan homer so it should be expected.

No, that's just an honest assessment. I feel there is a difference between being "stacked" and more "talented" ... for instance, the Heat I feel are more talented due to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh than the Clippers and Knicks. But I feel the Clippers and Knicks are more stacked because of the well rounded talent at ALL positions and off the bench.

There is absolutely a significant difference to account for ... the early 2000s Lakers weren't stacked. They were just more talented. The Blazers had legit talent, albeit not superstar talent, at all five positions and off the bench. Thus, they were more stacked.

Hakeem's '94 Rockets had talent at all five positions, quality starters and role players. Defensive players, shooters, and size. They were a stacked team. As were the Knicks. New York didn't have a co superstar to pair with Ewing but they had tons of talent and quality role players. Jordan's Bulls were more talented than the Knicks, thanks to MJ and Pip. But outside of those two the Knicks had better players at all positions.

[Calabis]

Lol hardly stopped? Heres how Jordan's father felt about Pippens job on Magic.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...-johnson-bulls

You are the ONLY person who feels Pippen didnt stop Magic.

Now try watching the game and quit trying to rewrite history...Pippen did a good job, but this put the clamps down/stopped Magic is comical

Pippen D was great in the sense that he made Magic work in the back court, due to a bigger body

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRQ7v942W7o

26:15 Magic gets by Pippen, Grant comes over to alter layup

28:23 Magic posts up Pip spins inside, would have layup, great rotation by Grant again, forces Magic to pass

28:54 Magic goes by Pip who reaches, Jordan steps up and takes charge

I could keep going, but like I said, Pippen did a great job, but acting like Magic struggled because of Pippen is a myth, hell Jordan didn't let Magic score either in the first quarter, but he picked up two ticky tack fouls

[Doctor Rivers]

Nice Try

Barkley Never Said What You Say About Pippen. Bull. He Actually Said Jordan Was Lucky to Play With Pippen in His Prime, as Well as Grant and Rodman!. Jordan had 2 All Stars Back Him Up In Their Primes and His Prime His Whole Career.

Pippen Became an All Star in 1990 In Case You Forgot and He Helped Jordan Win a Ring by Guarding Drexler and Magic the Best. out of those 1st Two Rings.

He Was the Best Defender in the Bulls by Far and The Best Perimeter Defender in the League.

He Had More Responsabilities than Jordan because He Was the Point-Forward Under a Trinagle that Diminished His Stats. He Had To Do More Stuff than Just Score. Create and Be the Best Defender in the Team is Something That Usually is Given to 2 Different Players, Yet Pippen Had No Problem With That and Did Both Jobs at a Great Level ( Not to Mention, Rebound, Score, Team Defend etc)

He Had To Create (Something Jordan finally Accepted since Phil Was Trying to Make Jordan Understand This and Finally It Happened), Be the 2nd Lead Scorer, Be The 2nd Lead Rebounder, Be The Best Defender, Be The Best Team Defender and Play as a Teamate More than a Star.

Pippen`s 1991 Stats while Being the Best Individual Defender For Those Play-Offs and Finals (Defensive Rating Agrees): 20.8 PPG (45.3% FG), 9.4 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.4 SPG and 1.0 BPG.

If Those are Not All Star Level Stats Then What Are?

battle of the bold text

[97 bulls]

These people fail to point out that Jordan from the beginning established a winning culture and expectation in the organization with his level of play and competitiveness.*

The Bulls hadnt won a playoff game the first few years of Jordans career. How did he establish a winning culture by himself?

They bring up Scottie Pippen but fail to point out that Jordan was greatly instrumental in the development of Scottie Pippen, who entered the league as a DIV II raw college player. Now you can say Pippen would've ended up like that anyway or someone else would've done what Jordan did and help bring out his potential. But the fact is it was Jordan who did that, a DIV II college player succeeding the way Pippen did is extremely rare,*

Again I think the disagreement isnt so much Jordans role in Pippens development. Its the notion that Pippen was "MADE" by Jordan. That without him, (Jordan) Pippen ends up being nothing more than a Tayshaun Prince or Gerald Wallace. But fail to look at the fact that Jordans and Pippens game are just totally different. Pippen has a PG mentality and likes to get others involved, as well as score. Jordan has a scorers mentality. But he can set up teammates. I do feel Jordan and Pippen playing each other in pracyice helped BOTH players games. Not just Pippens. Amd the Horace Grant thing is just wrong.

They bring up Phil Jackson, but then fail to point out that Phil had zero head coaching experience before he got to Chicago and only 2 years as an assistant. He had less experience after the first championhip then Erik Spoelstra did.*

Phil Jackson won two championships as head coach of the Albany Patroons. And most people feel helped mold Jordan into a team player.

They bring up Dennis Rodman in the 2nd three-peat, but then fail to point out that despite leading the league in rebounds for years, NO team wanted to touch him cause of his attitude. Only the Bulls felt they had the leadership to contain him, and Jordan was obviously a huge part of that leadership

Jack Haley gets credit for keeping Rodman under control in 96. He kicked the camerman in 97 which cost him 25 games. And to my recolection wasnt much of a problem in 98. I think Jackson should get most of the credit for Rodman staying under control during their run. For no other reason than that they let him be him.

And then they bring up all these role players like BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, Bill Cartwright, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, etc. and act like they were special players when the reality is that role players are clearly interchangeable. They aren't players that dramatically change a team. They have skillsets who's utilization is mostly a function of how star players and coaches use them.*

They werent any different than any other role player on any other championship team. I do feel Kukoc couldve made a few Allstar games if he were in a different situation. He did avg 19/7/5 in 99. He shot 42%, but the league avg was roughly 43%.

Now, people look back and think they were just these stacked rosters cause of players like this, when the reality is there were a number of players like this in the league, but they are mostly forgotten because they weren't as successful cause they didn't get to play on championship teams. I guess people will most likely say the same thing in 10-20 years about players like Udonis Haslem, Joel Anthony, Mario Chalmers, Norris Cole, etc if the Heat win a bunch of titles even though now most people say the Heat suck outside of the big 3.

Id take Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Brian Williams, and Bill Wennington over alot of championship teams role players any day. The fact is these guys have been very successful outside of Chicago. Ron Harper was a 20 pt scorer and won two more championships with the Lakers. I remember Phil Jackson begged him no stay another season during their run with the Lakers. Steve Kerr is the career leader in three point shooting percentage and has two extra rings with the Spurs in which he played an integral role. Brian Williams was a dman good center with the Pistons who retired at 29. Kukoc was one of the best players in Europe. Lets not act like the Bulls FO found a bunch of bums on the street and Jordan molded them into this well oiled machine.

And as much as you hate to admit, the Bulls were extremely successful without Jordan. Why you overlook that is puzzling.

[97 bulls]

Now try watching the game and quit trying to rewrite history...Pippen did a good job, but this put the clamps down/stopped Magic is comical

Pippen D was great in the sense that he made Magic work in the back court, due to a bigger body

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRQ7v942W7o

26:15 Magic gets by Pippen, Grant comes over to alter layup

28:23 Magic posts up Pip spins inside, would have layup, great rotation by Grant again, forces Magic to pass

28:54 Magic goes by Pip who reaches, Jordan steps up and takes charge

I could keep going, but like I said, Pippen did a great job, but acting like Magic struggled because of Pippen is a myth, hell Jordan didn't let Magic score either in the first quarter, but he picked up two ticky tack fouls

Its not a myth. Pippen intentionally sent Magic toward help. Not to mention guys are still gonna get loose. I honestly dont think you know what youre talking about.

[La Frescobaldi]

The Bulls hadnt won a playoff game the first few years of Jordans career. How did he establish a winning culture by himself?



Again I think the disagreement isnt so much Jordans role in Pippens development. Its the notion that Pippen was "MADE" by Jordan. That without him, (Jordan) Pippen ends up being nothing more than a Tayshaun Prince or Gerald Wallace. But fail to look at the fact that Jordans and Pippens game are just totally different. Pippen has a PG mentality and likes to get others involved, as well as score. Jordan has a scorers mentality. But he can set up teammates. I do feel Jordan and Pippen playing each other in pracyice helped BOTH players games. Not just Pippens. Amd the Horace Grant thing is just wrong.

Phil Jackson won two championships as head coach of the Albany Patroons. And most people feel helped mold Jordan into a team player.

Jack Haley gets credit for keeping Rodman under control in 96. He kicked the camerman in 97 which cost him 25 games. And to my recolection wasnt much of a problem in 98. I think Jackson should get most of the credit for Rodman staying under control during their run. For no other reason than that they let him be him.



They werent any different than any other role player on any other championship team. I do feel Kukoc couldve made a few Allstar games if he were in a different situation. He did avg 19/7/5 in 99. He shot 42%, but the league avg was roughly 43%.


Id take Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Brian Williams, and Bill Wennington over alot of championship teams role players any day. The fact is these guys have been very successful outside of Chicago. Ron Harper was a 20 pt scorer and won two more championships with the Lakers. I remember Phil Jackson begged him no stay another season during their run with the Lakers. Steve Kerr is the career leader in three point shooting percentage and has two extra rings with the Spurs in which he played an integral role. Brian Williams was a dman good center with the Pistons who retired at 29. Kukoc was one of the best players in Europe. Lets not act like the Bulls FO found a bunch of bums on the street and Jordan molded them into this well oiled machine.

And as much as you hate to admit, the Bulls were extremely successful without Jordan. Why you overlook that is puzzling.

97Bulls schooling one and all little puppies & big trolls

[gengiskhan]

I've scanned through pretty much all the posts so far....

Facts are still facts.

1990 season: Pippen was All-star reserve

1991 season: Pippen was just a good player. Not even an all-star RESERVE calibre.

1992 season: Is the Pippens truest break through season.

Some here mentioned. 1991 is the real Pippen "coming of age" "break out" year just looking at the 1991 finals performance.

[COLOR="Red"]Nothing is further from the truth btw.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Navy"]1992 is the Pippen's real true break out season.
1992 is when Pippen suddenly became a dominant force on both ends of the court.
1992 is when Pippen immediately rose to Top 5 players in the NBA.
1992 is when Pippen became "all-star STARTER" from being a NON-allstar previous year.
[/COLOR]
1992 Pippen >> 1991 Pippen.

until then.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]1991 Michael Jordan (31.2 ppg, 11.4 apg) won the Ring by himself & helped other "Jordanaires (pippen & co btw 1987-1991)" collect the FIRST ring.[/COLOR]

1992 -1998: Jordan-Pippen combo won rings.

This is the Truth.

[Rubio2Gasol]

When Bold is not enough






[COLOR="Orange"]Colors[/COLOR]!

[Doctor Rivers]

When Bold is not enough






[COLOR="Orange"]Colors[/COLOR]!

[guy]

The Bulls hadnt won a playoff game the first few years of Jordans career. How did he establish a winning culture by himself?

They didn't even make the playoffs the previous 3 seasons, and their previous history's peaks were mediocre teams making the playoffs with no transcedent superstar to take them over the top. A transcedent talent with that fiery competitiveness completely changes expectations i.e. the culture. Those years of first round knockouts were disappointments. They wouldn't have been considered disappointments if they had someone like Reggie Miller instead. Even to this day that culture change is felt with the Bulls being considered disappointments every year since Jordan left, especially before Rose was drafted.

Again I think the disagreement isnt so much Jordans role in Pippens development. Its the notion that Pippen was "MADE" by Jordan. That without him, (Jordan) Pippen ends up being nothing more than a Tayshaun Prince or Gerald Wallace. But fail to look at the fact that Jordans and Pippens game are just totally different. Pippen has a PG mentality and likes to get others involved, as well as score. Jordan has a scorers mentality. But he can set up teammates. I do feel Jordan and Pippen playing each other in pracyice helped BOTH players games. Not just Pippens. Amd the Horace Grant thing is just wrong.

Well I never said Jordan "MADE" Pippen. The potential and the desire has to be there, which Pippen had. If that wasn't relevant, then Jordan could've done that to any average joe. And I did say that that doesn't mean Pippen wouldn't have been a good or great player anyway. Its just stupid when people use Pippen in a way to discredit Jordan, when people don't understand that it goes hand in hand because of Jordan's impact on Pippen's development. Doesn't make sense to me.

And Jordan was an established superstar before Pippen was even a Bull. He would've been a HOFer anyway and still one of the greatest players. Of course, Pippen helped Jordan become a better player, its probably impossible for that not to happen. Its just not even close to the same extent.

Why is what I said about Horace Grant wrong? So you think if Grant was playing on the Sacramento Kings not making the playoffs, it wouldn't have made a difference in his development? Whatever the case, Grant's not even close to the same level of Pippen, so I probably shouldn't have included him here. I probably should've included him with the interchangeable role players. Shit, they probably had a better version of him in Charles Oakley anyway.

Phil Jackson won two championships as head coach of the Albany Patroons. And most people feel helped mold Jordan into a team player.

Really? CBA championships matter now? Thats better then actual NBA head coaching experience? I never said Phil didn't help Jordan.

Jack Haley gets credit for keeping Rodman under control in 96. He kicked the camerman in 97 which cost him 25 games. And to my recolection wasnt much of a problem in 98. I think Jackson should get most of the credit for Rodman staying under control during their run. For no other reason than that they let him be him.

I don't think you understood my post, unless you think the Bulls were the only team in the league comfortable bringing him in because they were the only team with Jack Haley. I'm only talking about the actual decision to bring him in. I never said Jordan deserved all the credit, just that he was a big reason why they were the only team comfortable bringing him in. There's a reason why they were able to trade for Rodman with just freaking Will Perdue. Again, people also use Rodman to discredit Jordan, but people don't seem to understand that Jordan was one of the biggest reasons why they were the only team comfortable bringing him in. Doesn't make sense to me.

They werent any different than any other role player on any other championship team. I do feel Kukoc couldve made a few Allstar games if he were in a different situation. He did avg 19/7/5 in 99. He shot 42%, but the league avg was roughly 43%.

Actually, they weren't any different then any role player in general. They could probably find similar role players to assume those roles on almost every other team.

I've had this discussion with you about Toni Kukoc and I disagreed with it. Maybe he's not your average role player thats as easily replaceable, but he definitely wasn't this special star player you make him out to be.

Id take Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Brian Williams, and Bill Wennington over alot of championship teams role players any day. The fact is these guys have been very successful outside of Chicago. Ron Harper was a 20 pt scorer and won two more championships with the Lakers. I remember Phil Jackson begged him no stay another season during their run with the Lakers. Steve Kerr is the career leader in three point shooting percentage and has two extra rings with the Spurs in which he played an integral role. Brian Williams was a dman good center with the Pistons who retired at 29. Kukoc was one of the best players in Europe. Lets not act like the Bulls FO found a bunch of bums on the street and Jordan molded them into this well oiled machine.

And you would take alot of other championship role players over them as well, and even role role players that didn't win any championships. Thats not really saying much. There isn't a significant difference between role players. Thats why they are role players.

Ron Harper was not a 20 ppg scorer in Chicago. Injuries caused his decline before he even came to Chicago. Replace him with someone like Doug Christie, Derek Harper, Doc Rivers, Nate McMillan, Craig Ehlo, or many more and there probably wouldn't be such a huge difference.

No doubt Steve Kerr was a great 3-point shooter. But he wasn't exactly filling a role that someone like Tim Legler, BJ Armstrong, Brent Price, Dale Ellis, Tracy Murray, Hubert Davis and others couldn't have filled at the time.

I really don't understand why you constantly bring up Brian Williams when he only played 9 games for the Bulls and then 19 games in the playoffs in less than 20 mpg.

Toni Kukoc being one of the best players from Europe didn't really mean much back then. Actually, it doesn't really mean much even now since the style of play is different.

I never said they were a bunch of bums on the street. I said they were mostly average role players that you can find on almost every team.

And as much as you hate to admit, the Bulls were extremely successful without Jordan. Why you overlook that is puzzling.

I don't overlook that. In fact, I addressed that later in my post. Did you read it? As I said, it should be considered more of a positive reflection on Jordan actually. The whole "record without star player dictating their value" comparison is so ridiculously stupid. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it does mean something, but alot times it doesn't. It should be more of a case by case basis. You think its a coincidence that many times the teams that see the biggest drop off without their star player are teams who's star players leadership abilities were questionable in the first place i.e. David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Vince Carter, Lebron James (before last year), Dwight Howard while on the other hand many times teams that still do well and don't see as much of a drop off are those who's star players are considered great leaders i.e. Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Derrick Rose currently? I don't know what it is. Maybe in those cases, its cause those players don't add much to the team other then actual production on the court, and don't really lead before and after games framing the locker room culture and expectations a certain way. Of course, I'm not saying this always the case. Bird and Magic had injuries or retirements at times and there teams had big drop-offs, and the same thing just happened with CP3, and I wouldn't question their leadership skills. All I'm saying is it doesn't necessarily mean much, and its not like when teams do well without their star player, they would've played the exact same way had that player never even existed in the first place.

[Money 23]

guy just murked this entire thread. He's right about literally EVERYTHING.