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  1. #16
    College star SHAQisGOAT's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    GOAT defensive player, Thurmond is the GOAT one-on-one post defender though

  2. #17
    5-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlip
    As best as defense can be measured, and based upon the overwhelming consistency of the reports of the people who coached against him, players who played against him, and the media who watched him I would say that, Yes, Russell is more than likely the greatest defensive player ever.
    Is there any measuring stick that points to Russell directly as a great defender?

  3. #18
    Reign of Error BoutPractice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    His team's historic level of defensive performance with him on the court (a level they were able to sustain for a decade), as opposed to mediocre to dismal performance before he arrived, when he left, and when he was injured, point to him as the greatest defender of all time.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pointguard
    Is there any measuring stick that points to Russell directly as a great defender?
    Defense is always difficult (and sometimes impossible) to quantify statistically. It becomes an even more cumbersome task when trying to determine the defensive effectiveness of an individual who played before certain stats were officially recorded. Having said that, the closest thing to an actual and potentially credible statistical analysis of Russell's defensive impact that I've seen was found in Dean Oliver's book, Basketball on Paper: Rules and Tools for Performance Analysis.

    Observing certain trends throughout league history he estimated the league defensive ratings before 1974 I will just provide you with his conclusions.
    To make things equal, Oliver used the same formula and criteria for each team during the Russell era. He observed that Russell

  5. #20
    Linja Status Whoah10115's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    From what I've seen, he's the best anchor ever. He was a fierce shot-blocker at the rim and he was smart. Some of the things that Dwight does not get credit for are the things that Russell excelled at doing. He was also very athletic, quick, had tremendous lateral movement and great foot speed in short spaces.

  6. #21
    Local High School Star WillC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Ranking the best defensive centers of all-time: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot...-all-time.html

  7. #22
    5-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    [QUOTE=jlip]Defense is always difficult (and sometimes impossible) to quantify statistically. It becomes an even more cumbersome task when trying to determine the defensive effectiveness of an individual who played before certain stats were officially recorded. Having said that, the closest thing to an actual and potentially credible statistical analysis of Russell's defensive impact that I've seen was found in Dean Oliver's book, Basketball on Paper: Rules and Tools for Performance Analysis.

    Observing certain trends throughout league history he estimated the league defensive ratings before 1974 I will just provide you with his conclusions.
    To make things equal, Oliver used the same formula and criteria for each team during the Russell era. He observed that Russell

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by NumberSix
    Kobe's heart
    More like 8==D rider.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


    It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender.

    Also Russell, was considered the best player in the league before wilt, but when wilt came into the league he quickly changed that. IN order to still promote russell he had to be the best at something and defense it was.

  10. #25
    Local High School Star DatAsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlip
    He observed that Russell’s Celtics were by far the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons. Wilt’s Sixers were the best in 1967, the only season the Celtics weren’t 1st.

    Do you happen to know the method that Oliver used to estimate pace? What's interesting is that using Elgee's method, I too came to the conclusion that Russell's Celtics were the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons, the difference being that Wilt's Sixers were better in 1968, not 1967.

    [CODE]
    1968

    76ers 92.1
    Celtics 92.4
    Warriors 94.2
    Hawks 96.4
    Bullets 96.5
    Knicks 97.0
    Bulls 97.1
    Lakers 98.1
    Rockets 98.3
    Pistons 98.7
    SuperSonics 100.6
    Royals 102.7
    [/CODE]

    [CODE]
    1967

    Celtics 91.2
    Warriors 92.9
    Pistons 94.6
    Bulls 94.8
    76ers 95.1
    Lakers 97.3
    Hawks 97.6
    Bullets 98.2
    Royals 98.8
    Knicks 100.9
    [/CODE]


    I posted this chart I made a while back that attempts to somewhat quantify Russell's defensive stats. Like you said though, it's somewhat difficult given the limited data available. It's a shame we don't have the synergy numbers from back then, nor do we have the DRAPM data or any similar statistics.

    Last edited by DatAsh; 12-11-2012 at 12:32 AM.

  11. #26
    Linja Status Whoah10115's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlitt
    As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


    It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender.

    Also Russell, was considered the best player in the league before wilt, but when wilt came into the league he quickly changed that. IN order to still promote russell he had to be the best at something and defense it was.


    Why was he the best before Wilt?

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by DatAsh
    Do you happen to know the method that Oliver used to estimate pace? What's interesting is that using Elgee's method, I too came to the conclusion that Russell's Celtics were the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons, the difference being that Wilt's Sixers were better in 1968, not 1967.
    I'd have to go back and check my notes and the information from the book. It may take a couple of days for me to find those though. I do remember reading that the creators of basketballreference.com used Oliver's book as the source for much of their advanced stats. I'm familiar with Elgee's work and was amazed as to how similar his conclusions were to Oliver's.

  13. #28
    7-time NBA All-Star KG215's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by DatAsh
    Do you happen to know the method that Oliver used to estimate pace? What's interesting is that using Elgee's method, I too came to the conclusion that Russell's Celtics were the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons, the difference being that Wilt's Sixers were better in 1968, not 1967.

    [CODE]
    1968

    76ers 92.1
    Celtics 92.4
    Warriors 94.2
    Hawks 96.4
    Bullets 96.5
    Knicks 97.0
    Bulls 97.1
    Lakers 98.1
    Rockets 98.3
    Pistons 98.7
    SuperSonics 100.6
    Royals 102.7
    [/CODE]

    [CODE]
    1967

    Celtics 91.2
    Warriors 92.9
    Pistons 94.6
    Bulls 94.8
    76ers 95.1
    Lakers 97.3
    Hawks 97.6
    Bullets 98.2
    Royals 98.8
    Knicks 100.9
    [/CODE]
    Where did the Warriors rank the years they had Thurmond? I see they were #2 and #3 in '67 and '68, but what about the other years? I've read about how good he was as a defender. It's interesting to note that the careers of arguably three of the top five defensive anchors of all-time coincided, and their careers also took place in the 60's. You know...when all the centers were 6'5" white guys.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlitt
    As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


    It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender.


    Also Russell, was considered the best player in the league before wilt, but when wilt came into the league he quickly changed that. IN order to still promote russell he had to be the best at something and defense it was.
    [I]NEW YORK (AP)

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlitt
    As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


    It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender.
    Russell was acknowledged as the GOAT defender before Wilt ever came into the league, so this assertion isn't supported by any actual facts.

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