Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

[Leviathon1121]

Great post. I cant stress enough that the commentators were penciling him at PG. He said he wanted to eventually be a PG. He had those skills already. People were comparing him to Dennis Rodman. But more polished offensively. The proof is right there. What Jordan did for Pippen i.e. mentoring him showing him some offensive moves, techniques couldve been done by any veteran. And as Rock says why was Jordan only able to develop Pippen? What about the other draft picks the Bulls had? Why didnt he help someone on the Wizards?

He tried, Kwame Brown for example couldn't handle it. I think Pippen was one of the few that had the mental toughness to handle MJ's competitiveness on a day to day basis. They began feeding and learning from one another while they went at each other in practices.

You claiming that what Pippen got from getting to go at Jordan and learn from him every day in practices is something he could have gotten from any veteran is completely laughable though. Seriously, like I said earlier, it is statements like that that make you as bad as the OP.

[97 bulls]

He tried, Kwame Brown for example couldn't handle it. I think Pippen was one of the few that had the mental toughness to handle MJ's competitiveness on a day to day basis. They began feeding and learning from one another while they went at each other in practices.

You claiming that what Pippen got from getting to go at Jordan and learn from him every day in practices is something he could have gotten from any veteran is completely laughable though. Seriously, like I said earlier, it is statements like that that make you as bad as the OP.

This is fair Leviathon. I do feel having to defend Jordan daily made Pippen evolve from what people considered a great man defender to greatest perimeter defender ever. Great post.

[jlip]

How scouts and GMs viewed Pippen before he was drafted

[andgar923]

We wouldn't be mentioning Pip's name today if it wasn't for MJ, plain and simple.

So he was drafted 5th, so what?

There's been plenty of players drafted just as highly and higher that turned out to be shit. Go look at Pip's rookie and even 2nd year numbers

[chazzy]

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=andgar923]We wouldn't be mentioning Pip's name today if it wasn't for MJ, plain and simple.

So he was drafted 5th, so what?

There's been plenty of players drafted just as highly and higher that turned out to be shit. Go look at Pip's rookie and even 2nd year numbers

[andgar923]

Scouts were alreasy predicting what he would become before he set foot in the League. Dennis Rodman defense, with a more polished offense, and PG skills in a 6'8 body similar to Magic Johnson.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

And we saw those numbers as a rookie and 2nd year player. Gotcha!

You'd have an excellent argument if he came in ripping it, basically playing that way from get go

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=andgar923]And we saw those numbers as a rookie and 2nd year player. Gotcha!

You'd have an excellent argument if he came in ripping it, basically playing that way from get go

[andgar923]

This an excerpt from the articles jlip posted


The Bulls have purposely tried not to rush Pippen's development, though through last weekend he had played an average of 21.5 minutes in Chicago's first nine games. His scoring average was 8.6, and*he was showing some good defensive moves,*averaging nearly two steals per game. (Last season's leader, Alvin Robertson of San Antonio, averaged 3.2.) Pippen has spent most of his time subbing for Brad Sellers, who may be the league's first 7-foot small forward, but coach Doug Collins has also used Pippen,*who did it all at the University of Central Arkansas, at both guard spots.


And this one
Jerry Krause, the Bulls vice-president for basketball operations, says Pippen is "not afraid of anybody in the NBA because he doesn't know who most of these guys are." In fact, when*Krause complimented Pippen on the defensive job he had just done in one of last spring's college all-star games, Pippen seemed blas�. "I guess guys who play on national TV get a lot of publicity," he says. "I was expecting more from them."

But were supposed to believe some fool on the internet.

Stats don't lie, game films don't lie.

Krause once said Stacey King was the future.

He wouldn't be shit without MJ, plain and simple.

Get mad

[97 bulls]

Stats don't lie, game films don't lie.

Krause once said Stacey King was the future.

He wouldn't be shit without MJ, plain and simple.

Get mad

Lol Krause never said such. You sound worse than some of the Kobe trolls.

[Roundball_Rock]

How scouts and GMs viewed Pippen before he was drafted

Excellent stuff, Jlip! Let's add Chuck Daly to the list, who early on pegged, correctly, Pippen as a future superstar and realized Detroit was on borrowed time to a large degree because of that.

Pippen was an all-star by his third year and an elite player by his fourth. He was a scrub in high school. I guess it was Mike who took him from a high school scrub to a top 5 pick after college? Pippen was a unique case where his body developed very late and he did not come from an elite college program as a result. He didn't have a Dean Smith or Bob Knight teaching him in college. Given the facts of Pippen's life, it is not exactly surprising that he developed later than most. The question is whether it was inevitable or a fluke? The evidence suggests the former. You don't get drafted ahead of Reggie Miller, Kevin Johnson, Reggie Lewis, and co. without being perceived as a likely future all-star.

It is funny how MJ fans ignore that Pippen was not even a starter for all of the 1989 season (his second season). They throw his complete statistics out there without providing that important context. As a starter, which he was for most of the season after an early stint on the bench, he posted 16/7/4/2 in 36 minutes. Are these great numbers? No. Are they good, especially for a second year player on a team where one guy took 22 FGA and 10 FTA a game? Yes.

Pippen's per 36 minute production in 1990, his first full season as a starter, resembled his 1989 numbers, with the exception of an increase in assists. The reason his 1990 numbers look better is he averaged 38 minutes a game compared to 33 in 1989.

Did Pippen improve in 1990? Yes, but he wasn't a light years better player in 1990 than 1989 as the "Pippen was a scrub" narrative would have you believe. What he lacked early in his career was minutes. Let's remember his first ever start was Game 5 of the first round in 1988--and Pippen had a huge game as the Bulls finally got out the first round for the first time in the Jordan era (three consecutive first round exits and they were 2-2 and headed to a fourth before Scottie was inserted into the starting lineup).

Another funny thing about this narrative is it pretends every great player posted all-star numbers out the gate. Clyde Drexler averaged 8/3/1 as a rookie--and was deemed as having enough potential that they didn't need to draft Jordan.

Let's also remember MJ himself was not considered the next "sliced bread" player like Shaq, Kareem, or Wilt, for example, were. He was the #3 pick. Jordan did not dominate college or high school like Kareem did. Maybe Dean Smith is what elevated Jordan to the top 5 all-time? That is what the "Jordan made Pippen" logic would suggest. He definitely was not that caliber of a player in, say, 1982. The GOAT, Kareem, was the most dominant player at all three levels of basketball.

[LeBird]

[QUOTE=andgar923]We wouldn't be mentioning Pip's name today if it wasn't for MJ, plain and simple.

So he was drafted 5th, so what?

There's been plenty of players drafted just as highly and higher that turned out to be shit. Go look at Pip's rookie and even 2nd year numbers

[Round Mound]

See This is Why Media Sucks...I Had To Live and Listen to Jordan Stans (Not Real Basketball Fans) For Years. None of Them Knew How Good Pippen Was Because He Wasn`t Scoring 30 PPG but For Real NBA Fans Who Knew The Game and Watched The Whole Scenario We Knew How Good Pippen Was and in 1993-94 It Was Prooven That He Was Easily a Top 6 Player in the League and In a Time Way More Competitive than the 00s and 10s. You had Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq etc. Tough Competition and Pippen Prooved How Good of a Team Player He Is By Making Others Better More than Jordan Could, Rebounding, Stealing, Being the Best Perimeter Defender in the Game, Scoring, Driving to the Basket, Passing the Ball and Handling It With Great Notion etc. Pippen was a Superstar in his Own Right.

[andgar923]

Lol Krause never said such. You sound worse than some of the Kobe trolls.

Yes he did. Ray Clay mentioned this during an interview. He wanted the scorekeepers to pad his stats yelling at them that he was the future of the Bulls.

[andgar923]

What about the other way round? Would we mention Jordan as a GOAT candidate without Pippen?

To answer that question myself, I think we might have...but I'd be leaning towards 'no'. Pippen was the perfect fit for someone of Jordan's skills/temperament. Without Pippen being able to mould himself into a great player who didn't get in Jordan's way of persistent possession and aggressive scoring; and allowed Jordan to play his natural game to its highest level... Jordan could have just been another Elgin Baylor: great stats, 0 titles.

Who knows if he would've won without Pip. Nobody is saying that MJ didn't need him to win.

But there's a difference in making somebody a HOF player, and being instrumental in helping in winning rings. MJ was already killing the league before Pip. People were already saying how special he was, he was already being hailed and breaking records. Some even said he was the best player of all time before he won a ring.