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  1. #16
    Very good NBA starter tmacattack33's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Also if you want to talk stats, let's talk about the real season.

    Penny: 22.0 pts, .568 TS%, 4.5 reb, 6.6 assists, 3.1 TO (over 41 games)

    Grant Hill: 20.9 pts, .514 TS%, 7.1 reb, 5.8 assists, 3.0 TO (over 13 games)

    Hill only played playoff 13 games in Detroit, and that's a small sample size, so what we are mostly looking at here is Penny's numbers. Which are great playoff numbers (better TS% than even Lebron).

  2. #17
    Very good NBA starter tmacattack33's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Pippen's playoff stats in the 90's on the Bulls for comparison

    19.2 pts, .521 TS%, 7.9 reb, 5.5 assists, 3.0 TO (over 136 games)

  3. #18
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by scm5
    The thing is, we're just talking about peaks. Peak play, Pippen was better. Hill was more consistently good, and put up better numbers than Pippen overall, when he was healthy. Enough to cover the gap defensively.
    I'm not sure what you are saying, because you say 2 things that contradict each other: "Peak play, Pippen was better" and "[Hill did] enough to cover the gap defensively."

    But I was well aware that this is just talking about peaks. I believe Pippen's peak was better than Hill's. I only mentioned Hill's injuries, because I think that Hill would have had an even better peak in his career if it weren't for injuries.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
    Penny clearly doesn't fit in with how short his prime is. Hill+Pippen are evenly matched and debatable. VERY similar players. Hill was better score, Pippen better defender IMO.
    We're talking peak though, not prime, so when they were all at their best. I think you could argue Penny was better. He was pretty dominant in 1996 and he stepped up big time when Shaq went out that season. He was 3rd in MVP that season because of how big time he was.

  5. #20
    Clipper Nation Soldier Clippersfan86's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
    We're talking peak though, not prime, so when they were all at their best. I think you could argue Penny was better. He was pretty dominant in 1996 and he stepped up big time when Shaq went out that season. He was 3rd in MVP that season because of how big time he was.
    Again Penny's best season doesn't match the other two's. Hill had the best single season of the bunch and one of the best in NBA history giving just declining Jordan and Malone a run for their money for MVP.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
    Again Penny's best season doesn't match the other two's. Hill had the best single season of the bunch and one of the best in NBA history giving just declining Jordan and Malone a run for their money for MVP.
    This is based on what though?

    Penny's peak was just as good as Hill's, if not better. Hill was never as good of a playoff performer as Penny and Penny and Hill were both 3rd in MVP voting at one point. What exactly separates Hill from Penny?

    You can't just pass your opinion as a fact without even backing it up.

  7. #22
    Clipper Nation Soldier Clippersfan86's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
    This is based on what though?

    Penny's peak was just as good as Hill's, if not better. Hill was never as good of a playoff performer as Penny and Hill was never voted as high in the MVP rankings like Penny was in 1996.

    You can't just pass your opinion as a fact without even backing it up.
    Grant Hill's MVP runner up season... was 99 right?

    25.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg on 56.5 TS%. Not to mention Hill's always been a respectable/good defender, although not as good as he has been the last 5-6 years. Penny on the other hand was a mediocre defender who could be classified as average at best.

    Penny was an awesome and unique talent but he can't touch prime Hill. As for Pippen his numbers may not be quite as good as peak Hill BUT he's a top 3 perimeter defender of all time and has a case for the top spot in that regard, that alone puts him above Penny IMO.

    Penny is one of those players that have become insanely overhyped long after they are gone. I watched him and he was very very gifted and good. That being said his prime was extremely short lived and outside of getting carried by young Shaq didn't do much to impress me. People act like he's Lebron but forget that he only had what 4 seasons as a top caliber player, then vanished? By comparison Tmac and Vince Carter who people act like were a flash in the pan had at leasy 7-8 seasons at the highest level at their position.
    Last edited by Clippersfan86; 10-13-2012 at 05:58 PM.

  8. #23
    Very good NBA starter tmacattack33's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
    Again Penny's best season doesn't match the other two's. Hill had the best single season of the bunch and one of the best in NBA history giving just declining Jordan and Malone a run for their money for MVP.

    Penny's year and level of play in 1996 is something that Grant Hill never matched.

    Penny was ahead of Malone in voting in 1996 by the way.

    And I hope you didn't just try to say 1996 had a low level of top tier players, because those were some of the NBA's Golden Years. That was a great year for MJ, David Robinson (2nd in MVP voting), Pippen himself, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Karl Malone. It was an amazing time for the league.

  9. #24
    Clipper Nation Soldier Clippersfan86's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by tmacattack33
    Penny's year and level of play in 1996 is something that Grant Hill never matched.

    Penny was ahead of Malone in voting in 1996 by the way.

    And I hope you didn't just try to say 1996 had a low level of top tier players, because those were some of the NBA's Golden Years. That was a great year for MJ, David Robinson (2nd in MVP voting), Pippen himself, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Karl Malone .
    Hill in 99>>>Penny in 96.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
    Grant Hill's MVP runner up season... was 99 right?
    No, Hill's highest MVP ranked year was 1997 where he was 3rd just like Penny was in 1996.

    Hill wasn't even top 5 in MVP voting in 1999, don't know what you're talking about here.

    That being said his prime was extremely short lived and outside of getting carried by young Shaq didn't do much to impress me. People act like he's Lebron but forget that he only had what 4 seasons as a top caliber player, then vanished?
    We're talking peak here, best season and at their absolute best, who cares how long it lasted?

    Plus, a large reason why Penny was 3rd in MVP voting was because of how much he stepped up when Shaq was out. The Penny needs Shaq argument is invalid.

    By comparison Tmac and Vince Carter who people act like were a flash in the pan had at leasy 7-8 seasons at the highest level at their position.
    Yes, Penny was pretty much McGrady before McGrady, more efficient, lesser volume, but similar overall.

  11. #26
    Clipper Nation Soldier Clippersfan86's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
    No, Hill's highest MVP ranked year was 1997 where he was 3rd just like Penny was in 1996.

    Hill wasn't even top 5 in MVP voting in 1999, don't know what you're talking about here.


    We're talking peak here, best season and at their absolute best, who cares how long it lasted?

    Plus, a large reason why Penny was 3rd in MVP voting was because of how much he stepped up when Shaq was out. The Penny needs Shaq argument is invalid.


    Yes, Penny was pretty much McGrady before McGrady, more efficient, lesser volume, but similar overall.
    I put a question mark because I wasn't sure which year it was. I personally think 99 was his best year though and that's why I used it. Worse APG but 4+ ppg more and better defense. Nobody seems to be factoring how much better of a defender Hill was than Penny BTW.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
    I put a question mark because I wasn't sure which year it was. I personally think 99 was his best year though and that's why I used it. Worse APG but 4+ ppg more and better defense. Nobody seems to be factoring how much better of a defender Hill was than Penny BTW.
    Hill wasn't really that good of a defender until recently as he aged. He wasn't that good of a defender in his Pistons days. He was still better than Penny, no doubt, but he wasn't some all-defensive caliber player.

  13. #28
    Clipper Nation Soldier Clippersfan86's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    BTW Penny was the better playoff performer no doubt although he choked in 99. I shouldn't make it sound like it's not debatable but when defense+efficiency is factored in I prefer Hill strongly over Penny.

  14. #29
    Clipper Nation Soldier Clippersfan86's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
    Hill wasn't really that good of a defender until recently as he aged. He wasn't that good of a defender in his Pistons days. He was still better than Penny, no doubt, but he wasn't some all-defensive caliber player.
    I already said that . Not a "fantastic" or elite perimeter defender like later in his career but at least "good" or "above average" defensively in younger years, better than Penny defensively.

  15. #30
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer tpols's Avatar
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    Default Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

    99 was probably the weakest year in the nba in the past 30-40 years.

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