ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #4 Jerry West Vs Oscar Robertson.

[Kblaze8855]

Still filling in for GOAT till he returns. Last vote was somewhere in the area of 13-1 for West.


Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Mr.Clutch or The Big O should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #5 in our project.

Only members listed on the project roster will have their votes counted. Anyone may add their opinion and or argument as long as it's constructive. Our roster is now finalized. If you like the project and think you can make it better please add your opinion. If you'd like to join in the forwards, centers or all-time top 67 project, please let GOAT know via PM. The Final Roster is listed below....

The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)




14 seasons
12x all-NBA
5x All-defensive(all D teams started in his 9th season)
14x all-star
1x ASG MVP
1x NBA Champion
1969 Finals MVP
Top 6 in Field goal percentage 3 times and top 6 in TS% 8 seasons in a row
1x Assists leader(top 3 in 2 seasons)
1x scoring leader(top three in 5 seasons)
28.5-7-6 averages over 11 year prime
29/6/6 career average in the playoffs


Or





14 seasons
11x all-NBA
1X NBA MVP(top 3 5 seasons in a row)
12x all-star
3x ASG MVP
1x NBA Champion
7x Assists leader(top 2 in 9 straight seasons)
1x scoring leader(top three in 5 seasons)
2X NBA FT percentage leader
Top 4 in Field goal percentage 4 times and top 3 in TS% ten seasons in a row
29-10-8 averages over 10 year prime
22/9/7 career average in the playoffs


Final vote:


I believe its West by a final vote of 13-8

L.Kizzle - Oscar
ThaSwagg3r - West
Rose - Chose not to vote
WillC - Oscar
1987 Lakers - West
neyca - West
Toizumi - Oscar
Shaqattack3234 - Jerry West
Magnax1 - Oscar
nycelt84 - West
KGMN - Oscar
SteveNashMVPcro - West
Boston C's - West
Gotterdammerung - Oscar
SuperPippen - West
Droid101 - West
D.J. - Oscar
Miller for 3 - West
Odinn - West
HylianNightmare - West
MasterDurant24 - Oscar
Clippersfan86 - West

[L.Kizzle]

Now this is a BATTLE.

Oscar was better his first seasons, West better later in their career. They were about even in the middle years.

[Kblaze8855]

Hardest vote so far to me.

Ive felt strongly one way or the other about almost every vote till now.

On one hand....

Oscar was by most sources I can find considered the best guard of all time by like 1962. Early in his career the Lakers told Jerry that if they could get Oscar for him he was gone. So it seems the general belief was that Oscar was better. I saw Frank Ramsey say that as of 1960 Oscar was the best player who ever played the game. This is a guy who played with Russell and Cousy and against Wilt. Ranking Oscar as the GOAT. In his first season.

But...

Ive heard from Oscars teammates that he was a dick and if you missed a shot after he passed it to you he might not give you the ball again. But ive heard nothing but praise towards Jerry from everyone. By most accounts he was an outstanding defender and clutch player and it wasnt his fault his teams lost in the finals like 7 times in a row.

And I believe that last part. When you watch young Jerry and Elgin it feels like they are so far ahead of their times. Its like they are the only ones out there with real jumpers at times(and Dick Barnett who was nice in every game ive seen of his). Its hard to imagine that they didnt win it all 4-5 times. And they came SO close. A single jumper cost them one of the finals.

Its hard to rank a guy over someone else for clutchness when they lose like 4-5 game 7s for the title....but with Jerry? Eh.

For once im gonna have to think about it. I have no clear answer.

[L.Kizzle]

Hardest vote so far to me.

Ive felt strongly one way or the other about almost every vote till now.

On one hand....

Oscar was by most sources I can find considered the best guard of all time by like 1962. Early in his career the Lakers told Jerry that if they could get Oscar for him he was gone. So it seems the general belief was that Oscar was better. I saw Frank Ramsey say that as of 1960 Oscar was the best player who ever played the game. This is a guy who played with Russell and Cousy and against Wilt. Ranking Oscar as the GOAT. In his first season.

But...

Ive heard from Oscars teammates that he was a dick and if you missed a shot after he passed it to you he might not give you the ball again. But ive heard nothing but praise towards Jerry from everyone. By most accounts he was an outstanding defender and clutch player and it wasnt his fault his teams lost in the finals like 7 times in a row.

And I believe that last part. When you watch young Jerry and Elgin it feels like they are so far ahead of their times. Its like they are the only ones out there with real jumpers at times(and Dirk Barnett who was nice in every game ive seen of his). Its hard to imagine that they didnt win it all 4-5 times. And they came SO close. A single jumper cost them one of the finals.

Its hard to rank a guy over someone else for clutchness when they lose like 4-5 game 7s for the title....but with Jerry? Eh.

For once im gonna have to think about it. I have no clear answer.

If they had just one more mid-tier star, they'd have chips. All the other tops teams back then had nice bunch of guys. If Elgin and West had, say a Baily Howell who wasn't first and probably not a second tier star back then, I think they win a few titles.

[magnax1]

I have Oscar Ranked over West, mostly because it seems like everyone agreed that Oscar was better until West went on to win in the 70s. I think KBlaze was right about his attitude though. Lots of people who watched them both compare Jordan to Oscar in terms of the way they acted, which isn't exactly a compliment to Oscar.
One of the biggest reasons I'd take Oscar, is Bill Russell, one of the few people close to the game who's opinion I feel I can take seriously said Oscar was the greatest player he ever played against. Which surprised me a ton. I would've thought he'd say Elgin or Wilt.
People seem to complain about the fact that Oscar didn't win, but I think the only reason to take West over Oscar is longevity. I'm not saying it isn't close, because I do feel it is, but going of the little game footage, and what people say (I think West himself even said Oscar got the better of him his first few years) it's pretty obvious Oscar was better at his best.
Oscar

[necya]

tough one for sure.
oscar was very talended with a great body. he could do whatever he wanted and he knew that very well. i loved the way he participated to the rebound. but i have an issue with his general mind, when you watched the bucks, the dude could lead 3 straight offenses without giving the ball to his teammates. and i hate this kind of behaviour. in a way, he humiliated his teammates imo. even when you are the man, you have to play with 4 other players. a thing Oscar struggled with like Kobe. But what an increble complete player.

West was just as amazing to watch, but in a very different way. his jumshot was as beautiful as efficient. he also felt the game incredibly well.
i have always prefered West as Elgin. Baylor shot the ball too much for my tastes.

MJ
West
Oscar
Kobe
with slim margins for the last 3.

edit : my bad, there is another MJ at 2 !

[D.J.]

Very, VERY close. Both scored a similar amount of points, though West was the better shooter. West also has All-Defensive nominations. But Oscar did average a triple-double. He was also the better rebounder, provided more mismatches because he was a 6'5" guy playing the point, as opposed to 6'2" West. Oscar also had postseasons averaging 29/11/11, 32/13/9, 29/9/8, 28/12/5, 32/8/7+, and 25/11/4. We're basically talking Jason Kidd with the ability to score.

Oscar Robertson, but only by a hair.

[catch24]

Robertson by the slighest of margins

MJ
West
Oscar
Kobe
with slim margins for the last 3.

What's up necya? I know for most, the combination of accolades, peak play, longevity, and impact go into these type of rankings...and in this case, most people have Kobe ranked above those two. Why do you see it the other way around? Just curious.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is tough. It seems like most at the time thought that Oscar was better.

From what I've seen, West seemed quicker and had a better looking jumper with more range while Oscar was bigger and seemed to consistently exploit his strength advantage and post up and their scoring numbers ended up pretty similar in terms of points and efficiency. Based on everything I've seen and heard, Oscar was the better passer, though West did lead the league in assists as well.

I haven't heard much said about Oscar's defense, but West started making all-defensive first teams as soon as the award was created and I've heard his defense praised quite a bit.

I've also heard West's clutch play praised a lot more, and it does seem like he was a better playoff performer.

And as KBlaze mentioned, some of Oscar's teammates have said some negative things about him as a teammate and I've yet to hear anything like that said about West.

Then there's team success.

Oscar's teams really didn't accomplish all that much in Cincinnati winning 50 games just once, winning a total of 2 playoff series, never playing in the finals and missing the playoffs 4 times in 10 seasons there.

West did have a better situation with Elgin Baylor as the Lakers best player in his early seasons, and the Royals best team lost to arguably the best Celtics team in '64, and lost to Boston again in '66 as well as '63. So the team that was beating West's teams in the finals was in the way of Oscar getting there.

But there are many other years where Boston wasn't why he wasn't winning titles since they only accounted for half of Cincinnati's playoff defeats and of course, there were the 4 years when they missed the playoffs. Though in 1968 for example, it's tough to blame him considering the Royals were 36-29 with him and 3-14 without him.

Oscar also won MVP over Russell and Chamberlain in their primes, a very rare feat because from 1960-1968, Russell and Chamberlain won every other MVP award.

As far as the championships they won. Oscar did join a team that had gone 55-27 the previous year and had the best player in the game and with Kareem and Bob Dandridge entering their second years, they were bound to improve(and they did). But Milwaukee was very dominant winning 66 games and winning by an average of 12.3 ppg.

But the following season, West had a bigger role as the number 1 option on a championship team that won a record 33 games in a row and 69 games overall which was a record at the time(they were 67-10 when West played).

But I wouldn't call West the best player on that team either and Oscar performed better during the playoffs the previous year than West did in the '72 playoffs. But that's made up for by 1969 when West played more than well enough to win a title becoming the only Finals MVP on a losing team.

It's close, but team success tips it in West's favor. When I think about it, there are some other players who don't get into top 10 discussions like West and Oscar do that I can't see a reason to rank Oscar over, though I can see a reason to Rank West over.

So to be clear, I vote for Jerry West.

[tontoz]

West got past Kobe? Wow

Funny thing looking at Oscar's numbers the thing that really jumps out is how many minutes he played. His career average was 42 minutes per game. One year he played 46 minutes per game.

[KGMN]

West got past Kobe? Wow

Funny thing looking at Oscar's numbers the thing that really jumps out is how many minutes he played. His career average was 42 minutes per game. One year he played 46 minutes per game.

I don't think we got to Kobe yet...

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe is up against whoever wins this. You can guess the last 2

[L.Kizzle]

Kobe is up against whoever wins this. You can guess the last 2

Fat Lever and Terrell Brandon??

[SuperPippen]

Gonna write a long, rambling turd of text on why I personally think Jerry West was so good, and why I think he deserves to win this particular argument. I invite you to read it, if you like.

No disrespect towards Oscar, but based on all the footage I’ve seen, Jerry’s game impressed me more than Oscar’s did. Granted, many people say that Oscar’s best years came in the early 60’s, and really the only footage from that era that exists is of NBA Finals games.

So, it’s not like there was a wealth of footage for me to watch of Oscar in his prime. Jerry West was still going strong into the early 70’s (the first days of color, in more ways than one), and there is still comparatively more footage for one to watch of Jerry in the early 70’s - still at the top of his game, for the most part - than there is of Oscar during his Bucks years. So, again, it’s not like there’s enough footage available for someone to make a clear, definitive judgment oh who was better based purely on film alone. Still, I think I’m going to have to go with Jerry West in this debate.

I’ve seen many people here say that Jerry West was too short or too unathletic to excel (or even just compete, as ridiculous as that is) in today’s league. Untrue. West was, back in the 60’s, listed at 6’2”. To be more precise, he was reportedly measured at right about 6’”2.75. Depending upon the source, you’ll see West listed at either 6’2” or 6’3”. However, back in West’s era of the NBA, a player’s listed height was the height he was measured in while wearing ONLY socks, without any shoes. This is in contrast to the listed heights of players in the NBA today, which are measured with the players’ shoes on, and on top of that, an extra inch is often added to a player’s actual height.

And in West’s era, players wore the relatively thin-soled, rudimentary Chuck Taylors, which are a far-cry from the thick, cushioned, more “high-tech” shoes that players wear today. So, if West played today, his height would be listed as a good 6’4”, so he’d be as tall as guys like Jason Kidd and just a tad shorter than Dwyane Wade.

Furthermore, West had a pretty damn huge wingspan. There are reports and claims of him having the exact same sleeve measurements – around 39 inches - of Wilt Chamberlain, who, at 7’2” was a foot taller than West was. So, West’s wingspan was generally purported to have been around 6’9”, or 81 inches, which is pretty freaking huge, especially for someone of his height. In his era, West’s wingspan stood out as freakishly long. It’s still a hell of a lot longer than the wingspan of the vast majority of the people you’ll see today. And even in the modern era of black, athletic freaks of nature at the guard position with jaw-dropping physical proportions like Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, John Wall, Russell Westbrook, etc., Jerry West’s height is comparable (and sometimes even longer) to many of theirs and his wingspan is still very impressive. His body definitely would not stop him from competing in today’s NBA

Athletically, West was no slouch. He certainly was no Derrick Rose in terms of explosiveness or vertical, but he was still relatively quick (especially in the open court, where he was practically a blur with or without the ball in his hands) and had some good, historically underrated hops (in college, he averaged 16 boards per game, and was top 10 in the nation in rebounding). The flashy, above the rim style of play was discouraged when West was in the league, but he was still capable of attacking the basket and finishing at the rim with the best of them.

Laterally, he was impressively speedy, which was part of the reason he was such an effective defender, and he had amazingly quick hands (just check out his jumpshot). Something else to note is that it’s not like West was scoring on scrubs or crappy athletes; he went up against teams with guys like K.C. Jones, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Al Attles, Walt Frazier, etc. – basically guys who were his equals or superior to him in terms of height and athleticism, and who also have a reputation for having been fantastic defenders – and no one could really stop him.

Now I’m not sure if I personally believe this next bit, but knowledgable people who have seen both Jerry West and guys like Kobe Bryant play, and who’ve compared their athleticism, have said that Jerry West was a better athlete. I’m talking about guys like Ernie Vandeweghe, Rod Hundley, Chick Hearn, Elliot Kalb. Take from that what you will, but that has to be worth something.

In terms of stamina and toughness, West was in a league of his own. For his entire 14 year NBA career, West averaged nearly 40 MPG. And keep in mind, the league during his time played at a much higher pace than the modern NBA, and players would frequently sprint up and down the court and change posessions multiple times, sometimes in the span of less than a minute. Also, the league during West’s era played with a physicality that would make the pansies that inhabit today’s NBA wet their pants (Chris Bosh, anyone?) Players routinely got creamed, clobbered, crushed, etc. Nobody moreso than West, who, in spite of all the physical adversity that he faced, would put his nose to the grindstone, drive to the basket, and could always be trusted to go hard for that bucket .As a testament to this, he made a still-standing record 840 FT’s during the ’66 NBA season. NOBODY took a lickin’ and kept on tickin’ like Jerry West.

In today’s NBA, where a defender accidentally grazing you with the tip of his d*ck earns you a trip to the line, he would be right at the top of the league in FT attempts, and he would still be one of the best at attacking the rim.

With respect to guys like Jordan and Iverson, it would not be a stretch to say that West was the toughest guard, both physically and mentally, in league history. Physically, he was aggressive and willful, frequently played through injuries, and was never afraid to put his body in harm’s way, as I’ve already explained. Mentally, he was a competitor in every sense of the word (you could call him the anti-LeBron James in this respect, lol). He famously raised his game in the clutch, he always went as hard as he could for the victory, he was a perfectionist, and in spite of the fact that he took so many blows (again, both physically and mentally) during his career, he almost always got back up and kept on truckin’. He came so close to the championship so many times, but, unfortunately for him, Bill Russell and the Celtics or Willis Reed and the Knicks usually had something to say about that.

But, he never quit on his team until, at age 36, he felt it was time to retire. Every year he’d be back again and working harder than ever to finally earn that elusive championship. If you follow and read about West’s career, you’ll notice how, through high school, college, and the pros, almost all of the aspects of his game kept improving, both fundamentally and statistically, as time went on. He worked his ass off. And, of course, all of that hard work eventually paid off during the ’72 NBA season.

West as a player was very skilled, a fantastic scorer, had good fundamentals, a great work ethic, could attack the rim, could finish - although he was better at finishing with his right hand than he was with his left (but almost everyone is) - , could create his own shot going left OR right and stop on a dime for a great pull-up jumper, could post up and shoot a fadeaway, was a very capable ballhandler (even if he wasn’t capable of being a flashy dribbler) and playmaker, was a tenacious man-to-man defender who was a great ballhawk and fantastic at using his long wingspan to deflect passes for steals, and he possessed one of the best jumpshots and pull-up shots in league history. He turned the pull-up into a weapon and artform that’s, IMO, comparable to Kareem’s sky-hook, when speaking about a shot’s reliability and consistency. He would look he was planning on finishing or drawling a foul and then would suddenly stop on dime and quickly launch an accurate shot before most defenders could even react.

He was launching shots from 3-point range before anyone else even thought to venture out that far from the basket. He’s fifth all time in career PPG, his efficiency was extremely impressive for most players of his era, and remains impressive for any perimeter scorer today. He was just as good when the competition was at its best and when the game was on the line, which is why many dubbed him, “Mr. Clutch.” He holds the record for most points averaged over a playoffs. If he played today, there’s little doubt in my mind that he would be an All-Star. He was that good.

(Continued on second page of thread)

[KevinNYC]

If anyone is on the fence, I've always thought that this was one of the best photos in NBA history.