2012 OTC WWWF/WWF/WWE Match Thread

[Jackass18]

Sorry that I don't have time to give a proper response, but how can you say, "Savage is a ridiculously easy choice over Bret" and then only basically give it to Savage in 1 of the criteria, and IMO, being the worst one, drawing power? Are record sales your top criteria for ranking bands? Do you rank movies by how they did at the box office? Do you rank TV shows based upon ratings? There are plenty of factors that go into drawing power (If you're going against someone like Hogan, then you're probably going to have a big audience). There's just so much to it that I just don't like it that much to make a big deal out of. I think most, if not all already gave it to Savage for drawing power and mic work, but he lost out elsewhere. I think some seriously underrate Hart's charisma. You act like he was Dean Malenko when he wasn't.

[NugzHeat3]

Sorry that I don't have time to give a proper response, but how can you say, "Savage is a ridiculously easy choice over Bret" and then only basically give it to Savage in 1 of the criteria, and IMO, being the worst one, drawing power? Are record sales your top criteria for ranking bands? Do you rank movies by how they did at the box office? Do you rank TV shows based upon ratings? There are plenty of factors that go into drawing power (If you're going against someone like Hogan, then you're probably going to have a big audience). There's just so much to it that I just don't like it that much to make a big deal out of. I think most, if not all already gave it to Savage for drawing power, mic work, but he lost out elsewhere. I think some seriously underrated his charisma. You act like he was Dean Malenko when he wasn't.

Well, for one, I can admit I'm biased. I'm a Savage mark while Bret doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

Second, drawing power is the biggest factor since it's the most objective one in pro wrestling. Being a draw is a talent especially for a guy like Savage who appealed to all demographics unlike say Cena who has a marketing machine behind him and has a character aimed primarily at the kids who piss themsleves everytime someone mentions his name. For someone like Cena, I wouldn't use drawing power as an argument to the same extent for the reason above and he isn't a major draw to begin with anyway. But generally, the ability to engage and invest the entire audience to your character and have them pay to see you is a big factor.

You can back that up by facts and numbers but when you start talking about mic work, promos, ring work and even some of the more obvious attributes such as charisma where there isn't as much room for debate, people can greatly differ and let bias cloud their judgment. I do it too, nothing new really.

For example, I know several people who say Rock was terrible (not an exaggeration) on the mic because his promos were redundant, very catchphrase heavy, material was childish and he often worked from a script unlike some of the other greats such as Piper, Flair, Austin, Roberts ect. He was also mediocre in the ring outside of selling and this is pretty much a consensus opinion so basically Rock only had 1/3 categories down for a lot of people. But are you really going to tell me he doesn't belong in the upper echelon of the GOAT list despite all the criticisms people have of him?

That's where a set criteria where you weigh each category equally gives a flawed rewsult imo. If you didn't know that was the Rock and some random wrestler who has 1/3 of those categories down, would you really say he's anything more than your average wrestler?

Rock was way too big of a star, drew more money for the business than anybody not named Hogan/Austin and connected with the audience at a level very few if any ever did. You can't really deny his impact on the business and these factors alone warrant a great deal of praise.

That's the point I was trying to get at. Star power/drawing ability can often be the most telling aspect and I don't think you'd ever find a major draw that wasn't talented. They'll have flaws, at times several but for the most part, you're talking about highly talented performers. At the same time though, I'd agree the fact that someone doesn't draw at a high level doesn't mean they aren't talented. Case in point, Chris Jericho.

Also, if I was to breakdown further, the only category I really have down for Bret is ring work and I agree he wasn't Dean Malenko when it comes to charisma, but wasn't a notch above him either. I just didn't think highly of him.

Workrate - Bret
Drawing power - Savage
Look - Savage
Mic work - Savage
Promos - Savage
Charisma - Savage
Presence (i.e aura, personality, attention you command) - Savage

^Promos and mic work are interrelated to some extent but you can differentiate between these attributes. Promos are more about your content and material while mic work is your versatility, how you convery emotion, your understanding of pacing, raising the intensity depending on the situation ect. Come to think of it, charisma and presence are interchangeable too.

[AK47DR91]

I'll continue the tournament. the 3 judges, Boogie, Anti Hero and raiderfan19 will vote on who has the better overall team in which match ups. I'm hoping Round 8 will end over the weekend.

We'll just use one of the tag teams(just the real ones) instead of all 3.

Note: there won't be a tag team face off in Match 3 because iamgine doesn't have a real tag team.

See below bracket for next round ruling.
Match 1:

Brujesino

1. Andre the Giant
2. Ric Flair
3. Jake Roberts
4. Jimmy Snuka
5. Earthquake
6. Typhoon
7. Tito Santana
8. Rick Martel

Tag Teams
1. Earthquake + Typhoon (Natural Disasters)

VS

Jackass18:

Singles:

Bruno Sammartino
Eddie Guerrero
Christian
Dynamite Kid
William Regal
Tajiri
Greg Valentine
"Mr. Wonderful" Paul Orndorff

Tag Teams:

Regal & Tajiri

Match 2:

Maniak 2012 :

Singles Competitors :

The Undertaker
Booker T
Kane
Scott Steiner
Rhyno
Ted DiBiase Jr.
Cody Rhodes
Big John Studd

Tag Teams :
Kane and The Undertaker

VS

AK47DR91:

Singles:

1. Triple H
2. Chris Jericho
3. Yokozuna
4. Mr. McMahon
5. Shelton Benjamin
6. The Honky Tonk Man
7. Charlie Haas
8. Jerry "The King" Lawler
TAG TEAM:

Team Angle/The World's Greatest Tag Team (Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas)

Match 3:

iamgine

1. Kurt Angle
2. Goldberg
3. Kevin Nash
4. Alberto del Rio
5. Lex Luger
6. The Great Khali
7. Giant Gonzales
8. Sin Cara

VS

Knicks101:

Singles Competitors :

Randy Savage
Ricky Steamboat
Sycho Sid
Road Warrior Animal
The Iron Sheik
MVP
Arn Anderson
Tully Blanchard

Match 4:

Buffalo Bill

1. HBK
2. Big Show
3. British Bulldog
4. Bobby Lashley
5. Test
6. X-Pac
7. Ax
8. Smash

Tags
1. Ax + Smash (Demolition)

VS

LeBron23:

1. Hulk Hogan
2. CM Punk
3. Rey Mysterio
4. Dolph Ziggler
5. Goldust
6. Jacques Rougeau
7. Pierre
8. Raven

Tag teams:

Pierre and Jacque Rocque ( The Quebecers)

The four winners of Round of 8 will compete in the final championship round. To make it interesting and WWE-like, it will be in a Fatal Four Way match.

This Fatal Four Way championship match will start Monday.

The first team to get 2 of the 3 judges votes wins the tournament. If each judges voted on three different teams, then we'll have a special enforcer judge give his vote. The special enforcer I'm choosing right now is B-Low. He's not part of this but he has enough knowledge of the WWE.

I haven't talked to B-Low about this but I'll PM when we get to the next round if we need a tie breaker vote.

If B-Low voted for the 4th team that wasn't voted by the original 3 judges, then we're in a 4-way tie. To break this tie, a second special enforcer will declare the undisputed champion. The #2 special enforcer will be D12"Magic'.

I haven't talked to D12 about this either but he's a wrestling fan, I'm sure he'll help us end this tournament.

[Knicks101]

I'll let some names slide, but I'll go after some obvious ones and some of the more recent and well known people

Taz - Hell no
Shelton Benjamin - Nope
Giant Baba - **** no
Undertaker - Overrated
Mick Foley - **** no
Triple H - Hell no
Nigel McGuinness - Who?
The Rock - Hell no
John Cena - Are you outta your ****ing mind?
Umaga - No
Andre the Giant - The hell are you smoking?
Batista - Umm, no
Edge - Another highly overrated guy
Randy Orton - Nope
Dustin Rhodes - You already listed him
Finlay - No
JBL - God no, are you joking?
Kevin Nash - Dude, seriously, you're just naming names for the point of listing names

You literally have no clue what you're talking about, you're one of those guys who thinks that being a boring piece of shit like Dean Malenko and Lance Storm makes you good. Let it go. Lol at using the word overrated as a justification for one guy being better than another. . Every single guy I listed is at worst as good as Sting. "BIG MENZ CANTZ WRAZZLE!"

Also, Sting is better than Finlay?

Wow, didn't even notice you had HHH and Foley on there. Just, wow.

[Jackass18]

You literally have no clue what you're talking about, you're one of those guys who thinks that being a boring piece of shit like Dean Malenko and Lance Storm makes you good.

You do know that different people look for different things in a wrestling match, right? Or, is that something you're too arrogant/ignorant to realize? You may find Storm or Malenko boring, but I enjoyed their matches. I'd definitely take them over one of RVD's highflying, sloppy botchfests. Don't give me this stupid nonsense, I used to follow wrestling pretty hardcore and posted with other hardcore fans. You're not going to wow me with your arrogant opinion so get over yourself. I preferred puroresu, and even WCW (not some of their sh[COLOR="Black"]i[/COLOR]tty booking, though) to WWE's watered down wrestling.

Let it go. Lol at using the word overrated as a justification for one guy being better than another. . Every single guy I listed is at worst as good as Sting. "BIG MENZ CANTZ WRAZZLE!"

Where did I say big men can't wrestle? Maybe you could say I might be misremembering Sting, but to bring up some lazy sack of shit like Kevin Nash as being better is horseshit. Makes me think you seriously have something against Sting like he denied signing an autograph for you and you now have some personal vendetta against him. You may be dazzled by sloppy, sh[COLOR="Black"]i[/COLOR]tty brawls with a lack of actual wrestling, but I wasn't. That's what the WWE wanted. They wanted you to be a fan of their watered down product and just be enamored at Austin flipping people off and drinking beer. You listed Cena. I just watched yet another one of his matches, and he still sucks. Alright, maybe that's a bit harsh, but he's just not that good. His match was awfully flat, and there just wasn't much fluidity to it. When it ended, it was like 'so what?'

Wow, didn't even notice you had HHH and Foley on there. Just, wow.

Not my fault if you're one of the sheep who can't think for himself. HHH was one of the more overrated guys out there. But you probably thought HHH was a great wrestler because they shoved him down your throat. Probably cite a number of fights you rated highly, but just don't live up to the hype. Foley took the big bumps that wowed little kids like you, but what beyond that? Just because someone bled a lot didn't make him great. fine for a hardcore wrestler, and I'll give him a lot of respect for what he did, but I won't call him a great wrestler.

[BoogieWoogieMan]

I forgot this was going on, can you guys make an attempt to argue for you team before the judges make their decisions?

[AK47DR91]

Are we still doing it as 4 singles + tag team match ups or full roster match up?

[blacknapalm]

nash isn't even one of the best big man wrestlers. i'd rank taker, vader, bam bam bigelow, umaga and mike awesome well ahead of him. nash got by on 'look' and mic skills more than anything else...and it's not like he had incredible mic skills.

as far as sting, i'm not sure which one you're remembering. he was in a lot of fast paced, great matches with his surfer gimmick. once he got to the crow gimmick, he was past his prime. his peak years between '90-'93 are where the classics lie. his feuds with vader, the four horsemen and particularly flair are all good stuff.

'boring' dean malenko was a part of one of the biggest pops in wcw when he returned in '98 at slamboree. jericho even said he'd never heard a wcw crowd that loud before.

the place was going apeshit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENT6asElNiM

prop up nash while putting down sting and malenko? pretty laughable. i've long considered malenko one of the most underrated wrestlers, up there with arn anderson.

anyway, that's not the point. you can feel free to strongly disagree and have whatever opinion you want. your problem is your approach...your blanket statements and your overall closed mindedness is off putting.

i never told a fellow wrestling fan what to like or that his favorite wrestlers suck. some guys like japanese death matches. some guys like lucha. some guys like tag team wrestling. some guys like technical matches. some guys like indie matches and so on and so forth. to each their own. closed minded, condescending wrestling fans are the worst.

[Jackass18]

Second, drawing power is the biggest factor since it's the most objective one in pro wrestling.

For you. But for me, I just don't care what sheep flock to. Why would I rate quality based mainly on popularity? When you do that, you're not really going by your opinion, but by the opinion of little kids, sheep, idiot teenagers, etc... Some guys get the big marketing machine behind them and have much more of a chance of getting over than others. Some of it is out of their hands.

but when you start talking about mic work, promos, ring work and even some of the more obvious attributes such as charisma where there isn't as much room for debate, people can greatly differ and let bias cloud their judgment. I do it too, nothing new really.

That's fine if people are biased. It's their opinion and as long as they can do a good job defending it, then there's no problem. I have no problem if someone takes Savage or Hart. Both were legends.

For example, I know several people who say Rock was terrible (not an exaggeration) on the mic because his promos were redundant, very catchphrase heavy, material was childish and he often worked from a script unlike some of the other greats such as Piper, Flair, Austin, Roberts ect. He was also mediocre in the ring outside of selling and this is pretty much a consensus opinion so basically Rock only had 1/3 categories down for a lot of people. But are you really going to tell me he doesn't belong in the upper echelon of the GOAT list despite all the criticisms people have of him?

Well, I wasn't really a fan of the Rock, so I can't give him too much support him. Still though, I wouldn't say he was terrible on the mic, and his charisma was glaringly obvious to everyone. He was a big, big star that got the crowd to react (even to a simple raise of an eyebrow). It's awfully hard to make a case against him in the 'Superstar Skills' category. I would probably level the same criticisms about his mic work, but it's up to the judges whether they agree or not. There are some counterpoints to that (not that I'd bring them up).

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Are we still doing it as 4 singles + tag team match ups or full roster match up?

I say stick with the 4 singles + tag team match up. It will take too long to make a case for the entire roster.

Well, I wasn't really a fan of the Rock, so I can't give him too much support him. Still though, I wouldn't say he was terrible on the mic, and his charisma was glaringly obvious to everyone. He was a big, big star that got the crowd to react (even to a simple raise of an eyebrow). It's awfully hard to make a case against him in the 'Superstar Skills' category. I would probably level the same criticisms about his mic work, but it's up to the judges whether they agree or not. There are some counterpoints to that (not that I'd bring them up).

This is what I'm talking about. Just because you have an agenda against a wrestler, does not weaken their impact, fandom and accolades. If you're biased towards a wrestler, just straight up and say it. (This isn't directed to you Jackass, this is mainly to the Hart haters)

[AK47DR91]

I say stick with the 4 singles + tag team match up. It will take too long to make a case for the entire roster.

I already posted my 4 singles + tag team for my match up publicly.

Hey Maniak, since we're facing each other I'll just post line-up here.

Triple H
Chris Jericho
Yokozuna
Mr. McMahon

Tag Team- Shelton & Haas

The rest of the team should just do the same. Those who don't post their line-up on time, judges will just have to do it for them.