Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

[Kobe24]

LOL why is this stickied?

[RedBlackAttack]

LOL why is this stickied?

I was wondering the same thing.

What are the mods doing?

EDIT: I see they merged a bunch of redundant threads. Good job, guys.

[jo3y91]

theyve merged alot of threads its hard to keep track atm lol.

it wont happen though considering its the media that votes whos MVP and who isnt. no chance theyll both get the exact same amount of votes.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm going to repost this, because it may have gotten lost in the shuffle:

LeBron can't win MVP. His team will not get enough wins. It doesn't matter what kind of stats he puts up because the definition of MVP in this day and age is best player on a top team. I think this makes sense too. If you play on a garbage team, and you are a top tier player, of course you will put up better stats than if you have other great players on your team. If LeBron dragged his sorry team to 50 wins then he might have an argument (like AI when he won it). But that won't happen, so he's not really even in the race no matter what Kelly Dwyer says.

The only two players in contention in my eyes are Kobe and Chris Paul. But Paul gets no press so I think Kobe will win in a landslide. However, I think Paul is having a more impressive season than Kobe, so I vote for Paul.

Though I support Paul, if Kobe won I'd be just as happy. He really does deserve it and I think he should have won at least one by now so he's due. I'm not saying that's why he should win it (he should win it b/c he's playing amazing and his team is on fire), just saying I'd love it if he did because he should have at least one by now.

Actually, I think it is more likely than not that the Cavs will achieve the 50 win mark. Cleveland is currently 35-26.

Here is their remaining schedule:

Thursday, March 6: @ Chicago
Saturday, March 8: vs Indiana
Monday, March 10: vs Portland
Wednesday, March 12: @ New Jersey
Thursday, March 13: @ Washington
Sunday, March 16: vs Charlotte
Monday, March 17: @ Orlando
Wednesday, March 19: vs Detroit
Friday, March 21: vs Toronto
Saturday, March 22: @ Milwaukee
Wednesday, March 26: vs New Orleans
Saturday, March 29: @ Detroit
Sunday, March 30: vs Philadelphia
Wednesday, April 2: @ Charlotte
Thursday, April 3: vs Chicago
Saturday, April 5: vs Orlando
Wednesday, April 9: vs New Jersey
Friday, April 11: @ Chicago
Sunday, April 13: vs Miami
Monday, April 14: @ Philadelphia
Wednesday, April 16: vs Detroit

The Cavs need to just go 15-6 in these final 21 games. That seems VERY possible, to me. That is especially true when you consider that they have gone 5-2 since the big trade and that has been without some key pieces (Big Z, Gibson, Pavlovic).

When those guys get healthy, this will be a team to be reckoned with. Z is due back next week. Gibson and Pavlovic will both be back in the next two weeks.

Also, the more games that these new guys play together, the better they will become. Szczerbiak has yet to have a really good shooting night. Delonte is still finding his way. Joe Smith will continue to grow in his role (he has been fantastic). Wallace will just be asked to get rebounds and play good help defense (he has done both very well since joining the team).

When looking at this schedule, I could actually see the Cavs winning more than 50 games... Maybe around 52.

Unless something catastrophic happens, I don't think 50 wins will be much of a problem.

[YAWN]

Actually, I think it is more likely than not that the Cavs will achieve the 50 win mark. Cleveland is currently 35-26.

Here is their remaining schedule:

Thursday, March 6: @ Chicago W
Saturday, March 8: vs Indiana W
'Monday, March 10: vs Portland L
Wednesday, March 12: @ New Jersey W
Thursday, March 13: @ Washington W
Sunday, March 16: vs Charlotte W
Monday, March 17: @ Orlando L
Wednesday, March 19: vs Detroit L
Friday, March 21: vs Toronto W
Saturday, March 22: @ Milwaukee W
Wednesday, March 26: vs New Orleans L
Saturday, March 29: @ Detroit L
Sunday, March 30: vs Philadelphia W
Wednesday, April 2: @ Charlotte W
Thursday, April 3: vs Chicago W
Saturday, April 5: vs Orlando L
Wednesday, April 9: vs New Jersey W
Friday, April 11: @ Chicago W
Sunday, April 13: vs Miami W
Monday, April 14: @ Philadelphia W
Wednesday, April 16: vs Detroit L

The Cavs need to just go 15-6 in these final 21 games. That seems VERY possible, to me. That is especially true when you consider that they have gone 5-2 since the big trade and that has been without some key pieces (Big Z, Gibson, Pavlovic).

Unless something catastrophic happens, I don't think 50 wins will be much of a problem.

They would have to beat every team they would have to beat. and steal one game from a decent team. Its possible but i see them landing at 48 maybe

[RedBlackAttack]

They would have to beat every team they would have to beat. and steal one game from a decent team. Its possible but i see them landing at 48 maybe

You see them losing twice to Orlando and to Portland at home? I disagree with those. They will probably lose one or two that they aren't supposed to, but they will probably win one or two that aren't predicted, as well.

[YAWN]

You see them losing twice to Orlando and to Portland at home? I disagree with those. They will probably lose one or two that they aren't supposed to, but they will probably win one or two that aren't predicted, as well.

i just put losses next to the teams i think are better than the cavs. i wouldnt be surprised if they take all the games against detroit. they pave the way to the basket for bron every game.

[kidachi]

http://www.dailymotion.com/Grdgez/vi...p-this-s_sport

Kobe-LeBron MVP debate..

[RedBlackAttack]

http://www.dailymotion.com/Grdgez/vi...p-this-s_sport

Kobe-LeBron MVP debate..

God... that debate was straight terrible. Mahorn couldn't debate his way out of a paper bag and the other guy was just plain annoying. Those two wouldn't last 10 minutes on ISH.

Just terrible...

[ChrisConley]

Good post redblack. I didn't look at their schedule when I said there is no way they get 50, I just did the math and said "15-6... pfff yeah right". But the schedule is weak. It is a possibility, but I still think it's very slim (vs. "no chance" like I claimed earlier w/o seeing schedule). That being said, I have to agree with YAWN and disagree with you. I would be shocked and amazed if they do go 15-6. They still have lingering injuries plus LeBron has got to get tired and have a couple bad games sometime (doesn't he? he's been carrying the team for so long). In the end I can't see them getting more than 48 myself. However, if by chance they do crack 50 it will surely be due to an MVP performance by LeBron, at which time my vote will change to an undeniable nod for the King.

[jo3y91]

God... that debate was straight terrible. Mahorn couldn't debate his way out of a paper bag and the other guy was just plain annoying. Those two wouldn't last 10 minutes on ISH.

Just terrible...

lol so true, imagine lebron23 argueing why lebron was better then kobe against the other guy hahahahaha the guy would light himself on fire.

[LakerDynasty00]

I think Lebron is playing absolutely amazing and if they do get 50 wins I would be very hard pressed to deny him the MVP (even as a Laker and Kobe fan).

But I would also feel like Kobe got snubbed in 05-06 when he was averaging 35.4, 5.3, and 4.5. Although they only finished 45-37 I would argue playing in the west with one of the most awful supporting cast ever should have got him the MVP. I do not believe in the "best player on best team" MVP case. Its the guy who has played the best and been most valuable to his team. Without Kobe in 05-06 the Lakers win 25 games. I wholeheartedly believe that.
Anyway, because Kobe didnt get it then, LBJ shouldnt get it now. If the Lakers end up going 15-6 (like people are arguing the Cavs) will, they end up with a regular season mark of 58-24. How do you not give it to Kobe whos having a phenomenal season of his own, with an amazing record, in the most difficult conference maybe ever?

Heres another question: Whos supporting cast was worse, Kobes Lakers in 05-06 or Lebrons pre-trade squad (although you will have to give some averaged value to his new teammates) this season, on a scale of 1-10. 10 Being the best team ever, 1 being the Washington Generals.

Rosters:
Lakers 2005-2006 (now remember although many of the quality teammates were the same they were either in their first or second years in the league)

Kobe Bryant
Lamar Odom
Chris Mihm (played 59 games)
Smush Parker (never averaged more than 17min/g till playing with Lakers)
Brian Cook
Kwame Brown (72 games)
Devean George (71 games)
Luke Walton (69 games, 19min/g) *3rd year
Sasha Vujacic (82 games, 18min/g) *2nd year
Ronny Turiaf (23 games, 7min/g) *rookie
Andrew Bynum (46 games, 7.4min/g) *rookie
Von Wafer (16 games, 4.6min/g) *rookie

Cavaliers 2007-2008 (pre trade; maybe slightly inaccurate as I copied from their 2006-2007 roster):
LeBron James
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Drew Gooden
Sasha Pavlovic
Donyell Marshall
Anderson Varejao
Damon Jones
Daniel Gibson
Eric Snow
Shannon Brown
Scot Pollard
Dwayne Jones

Anyone want to post the relevant stats so one can make a reasonable comparison. I don't have the patience or know where I can get the stats easier to lay out. Someone post the pre-trade roster with any important notes about games played and who's a rookie/2nd year etc. And do the same for the post trade roster. I'll copy/paste edit into my thing so it can be looked at together.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think Lebron is playing absolutely amazing and if they do get 50 wins I would be very hard pressed to deny him the MVP (even as a Laker and Kobe fan).

But I would also feel like Kobe got snubbed in 05-06 when he was averaging 35.4, 5.3, and 4.5. Although they only finished 45-37 I would argue playing in the west with one of the most awful supporting cast ever should have got him the MVP. I do not believe in the "best player on best team" MVP case. Its the guy who has played the best and been most valuable to his team. Without Kobe in 05-06 the Lakers win 25 games. I wholeheartedly believe that.
Anyway, because Kobe didnt get it then, LBJ shouldnt get it now. If the Lakers end up going 15-6 (like people are arguing the Cavs) will, they end up with a regular season mark of 58-24. How do you not give it to Kobe whos having a phenomenal season of his own, with an amazing record, in the most difficult conference maybe ever?

Heres another question: Whos supporting cast was worse, Kobes Lakers in 05-06 or Lebrons pre-trade squad (although you will have to give some averaged value to his new teammates) this season, on a scale of 1-10. 10 Being the best team ever, 1 being the Washington Generals.

Rosters:
Lakers 2005-2006 (now remember although many of the quality teammates were the same they were either in their first or second years in the league)

Kobe Bryant
Lamar Odom
Chris Mihm (played 59 games)
Smush Parker (never averaged more than 17min/g till playing with Lakers)
Brian Cook
Kwame Brown (72 games)
Devean George (71 games)
Luke Walton (69 games, 19min/g) *3rd year
Sasha Vujacic (82 games, 18min/g) *2nd year
Ronny Turiaf (23 games, 7min/g) *rookie
Andrew Bynum (46 games, 7.4min/g) *rookie
Von Wafer (16 games, 4.6min/g) *rookie

Cavaliers 2007-2008 (pre trade; maybe slightly inaccurate as I copied from their 2006-2007 roster):
LeBron James
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Drew Gooden
Sasha Pavlovic
Donyell Marshall
Anderson Varejao
Damon Jones
Daniel Gibson
Eric Snow
Shannon Brown
Scot Pollard
Dwayne Jones

Anyone want to post the relevant stats so one can make a reasonable comparison. I don't have the patience or know where I can get the stats easier to lay out. Someone post the pre-trade roster with any important notes about games played and who's a rookie/2nd year etc. And do the same for the post trade roster. I'll copy/paste edit into my thing so it can be looked at together.

You bring up some interesting points, LD. However, I do have a rebuttal (as you could have probably guessed).

First of all, let's clarify a few of the points that you made in the above post.

While Kobe had a tremendous season in 2006, LeBron's statistical season was, arguably, as good (some may think even better).

2005-06

Kobe Bryant
35.4 points per game (45% shooting)
5.3 rebounds per game
4.5 assists per game
1.8 steals per game
0.4 blocks per game
3.13 turnovers per game

LeBron James
31.4 points per game (48% shooting)
7.0 rebounds per game
6.6 assists per game
1.6 steals per game
0.8 blocks per game
3.29 turnovers per game

The Lakers went 45-37.

The Cavs finished 50-32.

So, while you are right and Kobe did have a great statistical season in 2005-06, so did LeBron. Kobe averaged 4 more points per game with less efficiency, averaged .2 more steals per game and averaged .16 less turnovers per game.

LeBron averaged 1.7 more rebounds per game, 2.1 more assists per game and .4 more blocks per game, while getting his 31.4 points per game more efficiently.

Also, the Cavs won 50 games, while the Lakers won 45.

You can talk about the strength of the conferences and, while I agree that the West was probably a deeper conference, let's not forget that the Heat were NBA Champions that season. Also, it wasn't as though the Heat walked over the rest of the Eastern Conference to get to the finals.

They beat the Bulls 4-2 in the first round and the Pistons 4-2 in the ECF. Their only 'easy' series was the second round against the Nets. Then, they defeated the Mavs 4-2 in the finals.

I'm not so sure that you can hype the WC as being that far superior to the EC given the events that happened in the playoffs that season.

Given all of this information, LeBron certainly had as much a gripe to the MVP trophy in 2005-06 as Kobe did. Both were more deserving than Nash, imo.



Now...

With all due respect, Kobe's statistics in 2005-06 do not compare to LeBron's statistics this season.

Just take a look....

2005-06

Kobe Bryant
35.4 points per game (45% shooting)
5.3 rebounds per game
4.5 assists per game
1.8 steals per game
0.4 blocks per game
3.13 turnovers per game


2007-08

LeBron James
30.6 points per game (49% shooting)
8.1 rebounds per game
7.6 assists per game
2.0 steals per game
1.0 blocks per game
3.32 turnovers per game

LeBron has a substantial lead in every category except for scoring, but his scoring is FAR more efficient (four percentage points is substantial). That is not even mentioning that LeBron is on his way to a historic PER. He is currently at 30.47.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...r%2fstatistics

That is mind-blowing.

Also, while Kobe had LeBron on his heels, statistically speaking, in 2005-06, there is no one even close to LeBron this year. He is in a statistical class by himself.

While in 2005-06, the picture was cloudy, no matter how you looked at it, this season, it is not.

LeBron's statistics are far above anything that anyone else in the NBA has done. The only reason that any other player is in the MVP discussion is because of the Cavs' record. So, that begs the question... how many wins do the Cavs have to get for LeBron to become MVP.

I've been saying since the first 1/4 of the season that 50 wins should do it. That was before LeBron sat out 7 games (the Cavs went 0-7 in that stretch) and other injuries and trades hindered the chemistry of the team.

Still... 50 wins is within reach. If they should achieve it, I believe that LeBron will be and should be the MVP. Also, keep in mind that the Cavs have an excellent record against the West, so it isn't as though they are stacking up a bunch of wins against the East and then getting slaughtered when they head out West... it has been anything but, in fact.


Here is the question... For argument's sake, let's say that the Lakers finish 56-26 and the Cavs finish 50-32. Do those six victories make up for the very large gap in statistics, overshadow how LeBron has dominated the NBA this season and blind the fact that LeBron is having one of the great statistical seasons of the modern era?

Six wins?

I just don't think so...

[LakerDynasty00]

Very good points. Are you, for arguments sake calling their respective surrounding players in 05-06 equal? Because I would have rather had the Cavs guys then the our guys, obviously this year is very different. Which would mean that Kobe's 45 was probably about as good as James' 50. Then again, given their respective stats its still damn close, maybe with just a SLIGHT SLIGHT SLIGHT edge to KB for the ridiculous scoring numbers on a still very respectable 46%.

Anyway that's old news. If the Cavs win 50 games, I'm not sure how you can NOT give it to LBJ, other than the voters probably feel obligated to give it to the player on the team with the better record and also feel that they owe Kobe one by now (and are thinking Lebron's probably going to win a whole bunch by the time he's done).

I also will not deny that LBJ's statistics this season are close to paranormal. How much is actual ability/talent/desire/team dynamics is something hard to quanitfy. Do I think Kobe could average as many rebounds per game as Lebron if he took some away from Bynum, Gasol, and Odom? Yeah. Do I think he could score as much as Lebron AND have as many assists? No. I think Lebron's major advantage over Kobe is his court vision and passing skills. Lebron's size obviously helps him board as well, but you can't take that away from him, its not his fault he's such an absurd specimen.

How much credit do you have to take away from Lebron though (if they do say end up with exactly 50 wins) for reaching that number with his improved team, considering they will have played over a quarter of a season together?
Same question for Kobe with Pau.

I think my feeling is, regardless of how many wins each team ends up with, if the difference is 10 or greater (i.e. Lakers 60 wins, Cavs 50 wins) that it should go to Kobe. If it its under, like LA 58 Cavs 50, give it to Lebron. Whatever the argument, you can't ignore what Lebron has done is insane. But here's the thing, and maybe its always the issue. As your teammates improve (when you are a scorer) it is inevitable your scoring will go down. So there's just no way Kobe's going to average 30+ with the team he has, nor have any need to get 8 rebounds, but he'll also never average 8 assists (mostly his doing). There's unfortunately no perfect experiment where we could put each guy in the other's shoes and see what happens. Would Kobe's more shoot-first nature have worked for him on the Cavs? Would they get 50 wins? Would Lebron's slightly more passive nature gotten the Lakers to where they are? I dont know.

I'll just stick with my 10 win LBJ/KB MVP rule and be happy for whomever ends up with it. Might as well stick CP3 in there too.

[Flamboyant]

Lebron, at least he has his own style and doesn't imitate Micheal Jordan.

Kobe, at least he has his own jersey#, and doesn't immitate Michael Jordan.

LOL

Claiming he shouldn't win, cuz he immitates someone(Not for Kobe, but for any player in the league), is plain wack. Kobe has a lot in his palet, that the others don't, and his differs from the others (MJ included), as his range is unlimited. Jordan was never known for his 3s, he was more of a mid range shooter and driver.

People should start making better comments, instead of bashing other candidates for no reason(i.e: he immitates MJ, he is a ball hog, etc.)

By The Way, . . . CP3 - for MVP