Exposing Oscar Robertson

[pete's montreux]

i leave this thread disappointed

here i thought i was gonna see some big o dick

[chazzy]

How hard is it to figure out that one group of posters is ranking players based on their peak and prime play and another based on their accomplishments and career? Both are valid ways to rank players. Jordan was easily Top 10 by 1990 based on peak/prime play. LeBron James is Top 15 right now at least. However, careerwise, Jordan was not Top 10 by 1990 and LeBron James is not Top 15 right now.

This.

[jlauber]

Lets put it this way. Put Oscar on Lebron's Cavs for example, if you give him 22.9 FGA, 11 FTA and 11.4 apg(not to mention several turnovers a game). He'd be using at least 43 or so possessions per game. Almost half of his team's possessions!

People say Lebron dominates the ball a lot, yet the most possessions he's used were around 38 in '06 when he was playing 42.5 mpg, 37-38 in 2008 when he was playing 40.4 mpg and around 37 in 2010 when he was playing 39 mpg.

So Oscar would be a lot more ball-dominant than Lebron(who people already claim is too ball dominant)?

Oscar took 22% of his team's FGAs in his 61-62 season, and 29% of his team's FT's. Lebron took 25% of his team's FGAs in his 07-08 season, and 37% of his team's FTAs.

Lebron WAS more "ball dominant" in his '08 season, than Oscar was in his '62 season.

at this. Adjusting FG% up is funny and implies that defense was better in the 60's.

Once again the facts seem to confirm that defense WAS better in the 60's. Kareem, at his statistical peak,ata ges 23-25, and very likely his physical peak (most of the great players have their best seasons in their mid-20's...MJ, Lebron, and yes, Kareem), had a FG% against a well-past his peak Wilt ages 34-36 (and on a surgically repaired knee), of .464, over the course of their 28 H2H games. His career FG% was .559. And Wilt was playing volleyball with Kareem's skyhooks in those game's as well. Then there was Nate Thurmond who reduced Kareem to a shell of what he did against the other center's of his career, and in 61 games, too. Kareem struggled to shoot 40% against Thurmond in their playoff series, and he had MANY games of 40%, or less, against Nate.. Yet, a Kareem, at age 38, and in such horrible shape that he could barely get six rebounds a game, just TORCHED a 23 year old Hakeem...in THREE games. He scored at will against him, with games of 35, 42, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting.) Not only that, but Kareem, aged 39-41, outshot Hakeem, from '87 thru '89, .567 to .475.

And, a near-prime Wilt, just shelled a 22 year-old Kareem in their one meeting before Wilt shredded his knee. One can only wonder how a PRIME Chamberlain would have fared against a prime Kareem. In any case, Wilt's defense severely hampered Kareem. And, Kareem never faced a prime Russell, either.

But even beyond the much better defense by the best defensive centers of the 60's, there were SEVERAL other factors which SIGNFICANTLY lowered FG percentages. One, the frigid arenas. Two, the breezy arenas. Three, the dead spots in the floors (and even nails popping out of the floors.) Four, and this is HUGE...the BALL was NOT uniform until around 1970. BUT, THE biggest reason was probably the scheduling. How many 3-in-row games did MJ play in '87, or Shaq in '00? ZERO. They seldom even played B2B's. How about Wilt in his '62 season. Aside from a TON of B2B games...he had SIX "three-in-a-rows." BUT, he wasn't done there, either, as he had two more other strings of FOUR-IN-A-ROW games...AND, then ONE more string of FIVE straight games (and none of the home games were consecutive, either.)

So, the players of the early 60's, players like West, was a career .474 shooter, which included an unfathomable .419 and .445 percentage in the early 60's. Nearly every great player that played in the entire decade of the 60's, shot considerably better in the late 60's. And players like Rick Barry and John Havlicek shot considerably better in the 70's. Of course, then came the defenseless 80's...where NO DEFENSE was played. ENTIRE leagues were shooting as high as .492. Hell, the 30-52 Kings of the 84-85 season shot .504!

So, YES, LEAGUE AVERAGE FG% was EVERY BIT as significant as those that argue PACE. Once again, if you are going to use PACE against the players of the 60's, you HAVE to adjust for FG%. If not, it would be like comparing the pitcher's of the "dead-ball era", which those of the "steroid era." Oscar shooting .518 in his 62-63 season, in a league that shot .441, is the equivalent of shooting .564 in MJ's 86-87 season, in which the NBA shot .480. And, Chamberlain's .683 in a league that shot .441, would have been an unworldly .743 in the '86-87 season. Furthermore, his .727 in a league that shot .456, would have equaled shooting .765 in '86-87.


And, for those that use PACE, just how much difference is there between '62 and '10? The NBA averaged 100.4 ppg last year. In '62 the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. So, the 2010 season was at 85% of the '62 scoring. Here again, there have been some complete idiots who claimed that the difference in PACE was nearly double. In other words, Chamberlain's '62 NBA would have had to average 200 ppg. Even those that claim a 50% difference, are WAY off. That would mean that the '62 NBA would have averaged 150 ppg. Even reducing Wilt's '62 NBA by one-third, would mean that his league would have averaged 79 ppg in TODAY's era!

And I have already calculated the ACTUAL differences. Reduce Wilt's '62 FGAs and FTAs down to MJ's '87 levels, and he STILL scores 41 ppg. BUT, adjust his FG% to the much higher percentage he would have shot against the helpless defenders of the 80's, and Wilt would then have scored 45 ppg.


ONE MORE TIME, Oscar would have EASILY gotten his 23 FGAs per game in 2010. And considering that Oscar shot .478 in a league that shot .426, he would have shot about .518 in 2010, in a league that shot .461. And if Lebron could get to the stripe 10 times a game, and Oscar was getting there 11, I don't see any difference there, either. Maybe reduce Oscar's scoring by two FTs a game, but, then adding at least one more FG per game on more efficiency, would off-set that.

Then there is the matter of assists. The "paceologists" have no argument here. Team's in 2010 averaged nearly as many assists as team's in '62 (1742 in '10 to 1915 in '62.) Which means that Oscar's 11.4 would not drop much at all, even with less possessions.

The only aread where Oscar would see a solid reduction, would be in rebounding. But here again, the "paceologists" have come up with all kinds of crazy numbers when comparing '62 to '10. The fact is, the average team in '62 was getting around 60 rpg (after subtracting team rebounds), while the average team was getting 42 in '10. Even reducing Oscar's 12.5 rpg, by one-third (which is still too much of a reduction), and Oscar would have been at 8.5 rpg. You could easily argue 9.0 rpg by ACTUAL percentages.

The bottom line? Claiming Oscar's '62 season translates to a 30-8-10 season in 2010 is not a stretch at all.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oscar took 22% of his team's FGAs in his 61-62 season, and 29% of his team's FT's. Lebron took 25% of his team's FGAs in his 07-08 season, and 37% of his team's FTAs.

Lebron WAS more "ball dominant" in his '08 season, than Oscar was in his '62 season.

Exactly, yet he ended up shooting less than Oscar because of the huge disparity in pace. Oscar taking the same percentage of his team's shots that he took in 1962 on the 2008 Cavs equals 17.8 FGA and 7.4 FTA, and that's assuming he plays 44+ mpg(which he probably wouldn't).

Once again the facts suggest otherwise. Kareem, at his statistical peak,ata ges 23-25, and very likely his physical peak (most of the great players have their best seasons in their mid-20's...MJ, Lebron, and yes, Kareem), had a FG% against a well-past his peak Wilt ages 34-36 (and on a surgically repaired knee), shot .464 over the course of their 28 H2H games. His career FG% was .559. And Wilt was playing volleyball with Kareem's skyhooks in those game's as well. Then there was Nate Thurmond who reduced Kareem to a shell of what he did against the other center's of his career, and in 61 games, too. Kareem struggled to shoot 40% against Thurmond. Yet, a Kareem, at age 38, and in such horrible shape that he could barely get six rebounds a game, just TORCHED a 23 year old Hakeem...in THREE games. He scored at will against him, with games of 35, 42, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting.) Not only that, but Kareem, aged 39-41, outshot Hakeem, from '87 thru '89, .567 to .475.

And, a near-prime Wilt, just shelled a 22 year-old Kareem in their one meeting before Wilt shredded his knee. One can only wonder how a PRIME Chamberlain would have fared against a prime Kareem. In any case, Wilt's defense severely hampered Kareem. And, Kareem never faced a prime Russell, either.

But even beyond the much better defense by the best defensive centers of the 60's, there were SEVERAL other factors which SIGNFICANTLY lowered FG percentages. One, the frigid arenas. Two, the breezy arenas. Three, the dead spots in the floors (and even nails popping out of the floors.) Four, and this is HUGE...the BALL was NOT uniform until around 1970. BUT, THE biggest reason was probably the scheduling. How many 3-in-row games did MJ play in '87, or Shaq in '00? ZERO. They seldom even played B2B's. How about Wilt in his '62 season. Aside from a TON of B2B games...he had SIX "three-in-a-rows." BUT, he wasn't done there, either, as he had two more other strings of FOUR-IN-A-ROW games...AND, then ONE more string of FIVE straight games (and none of the home games were consecutive, either.)

So, the players of the early 60's, players like West, was a career .474 shooter, which included an unfathomable .419 and .445 percentage in the early 60's. Nearly every great player that played in the entire decade of the 60's, shot considerably better in the late 60's. And players like Rick Barry and John Havlicek shot considerably better in the 70's. Of course, then came the defenseless 80's...where NO DEFENSE was played. ENTIRE leagues were shooting as high as .492. Hell, the 30-52 Kings of the 84-85 season shot .504!

So, YES, LEAGUE AVERAGE FG% was EVERY BIT as significant as those that argue PACE. Once again, if you are going to use PACE against the players of the 60's, you HAVE to adjust for FG%. If not, it would be like comparing the pitcher's of the "dead-ball era", which those of the "steroid era." Oscar shooting .518 in his 62-63 season, in a league that shot .441, is the equivalent of shooting .564 in MJ's 86-87 season, in which the NBA shot .480. And, Chamberlain's .683 in a league that shot .441, would have been an unworldly .743 in the '86-87 season. Furthermore, his .727 in a league that shot .456, would have equaled shooting .765 in '86-87.


And, for those that use PACE, just how much difference is there between '62 and '10? The NBA averaged 100.4 ppg last year. In '62 the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. So, the 2010 season was at 85% of the '62 scoring. Here again, there have been some complete idiots who claimed that the difference in PACE was nearly double. In other words, Chamberlain's '62 NBA would have had to average 200 ppg. Even those that claim a 50% difference, are WAY off. That would mean that the '62 NBA would have averaged 150 ppg. Even reducing Wilt's '62 NBA by one-third, would mean that his league would have averaged 79 ppg in TODAY's era!

And I have already calculated the ACTUAL differences. Reduce Wilt's '62 FGAs and FTAs down to MJ's '87 levels, and he STILL scores 41 ppg. BUT, adjust his FG% to the much higher percentage he would have shot against the helpless defenders of the 80's, and Wilt would then have scored 45 ppg.


ONE MORE TIME, Oscar would have EASILY gotten his 23 FGAs per game in 2010. And considering that Oscar shot .478 in a league that shot .426, he would have shot about .518 in 2010, in a league that shot .461. And if Lebron could get to the stripe 10 times a game, and Oscar was getting there 11, I don't see any difference there, either. Maybe reduce Oscar's scoring by two FTs a game, but, then adding at least one more FG per game on more efficiency, would off-set that.

Then there is the matter of assists. The "paceologists" have no argument here. Team's in 2010 averaged nearly as many assists as team's in '62 (1742 in '10 to 1915 in '62.) Which means that Oscar's 11.4 would not drop much at all, even with less possessions.

The only aread where Oscar would see a solid reduction, would be in rebounding. But here again, the "paceologists" have come up with all kinds of crazy numbers when comparing '62 to '10. The fact is, the average team in '62 was getting around 60 rpg (after subtracting team rebounds), while the average team was getting 42 in '10. Even reducing Oscar's 12.5 rpg, by one-third (which is still too much of a reduction), and Oscar would have been at 8.5 rpg. You could easily argue 9.0 rpg by ACTUAL percentages.

The bottom line? Claiming Oscar's '62 season translates to a 30-8-10 season in 2010 is not a stretch at all.

Not this idiotic "bridge" crap again. Remember my comparison between team defenses in 2000 and 1967? I've heard many players talk about how much more advanced defensive schemes got as time went on, one of them being Matt Goukas(Wilt's teammate on the Sixers).

I have no idea what Oscar would actually average. Probably more in the 80's than the late 90's/early 00's, but 30/8/10?

Also, Lebron>Oscar.

[jlauber]

Exactly, yet he ended up shooting less than Oscar because of the huge disparity in pace. Oscar taking the same percentage of his team's shots that he took in 1962 on the 2008 Cavs equals 17.8 FGA and 7.4 FTA, and that's assuming he plays 44+ mpg(which he probably wouldn't).



Not this idiotic "bridge" crap again. Remember my comparison between team defenses in 2000 and 1967? I've heard many players talk about how much more advanced defensive schemes got as time went on, one of them being Matt Goukas(Wilt's teammate on the Sixers).

I have no idea what Oscar would actually average. Probably more in the 80's than the late 90's/early 00's, but 30/8/10?

Also, Lebron>Oscar.

So, YOU are essentially claiming that Oscar could only get 17 FGAs in 2008? While Lebron coluld get 22? Yet, in the 00's we had players like Kobe and Iverson getting 27?

And in the DEFENSELESS 80's, let's get real. He would be scoring as nearly as efficiently as Dantley, with much more all-around impact.

As for Lebron>Oscar. Give Lebron another 7-8 seasons, and maybe I will agree with you. But, NOT at this point in their CAREERS.

BTW, Guokas shot .389 in 66-67. Take a look at his FG% in the 70's. He even shot .570 one season. Just ONE MORE EXAMPLE that CLEARLY demonstrates that it was MUCH MORE difficult to shoot well in the 60's.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So, YOU are essentially claiming that Oscar could only get 17 FGAs in 2008? While Lebron coluld get 22? Yet, in the 00's we had players like Kobe and Iverson getting 27?

17.8 is closer to 18 than 17 and no, as I said, I have no idea what his numbers would look like, I was just pointing out that Oscar averaging the same percentage of his team's shots would end up at that on the 2008 Cavs which points out how big of a role pace plays when the disparity is so huge(around 35 possessions per game).

And in the DEFENSELESS 80's, let's get real. He would be scoring as nearly as efficiently as Dantley, with much more all-around impact.

As for Lebron>Oscar. Give Lebron another 7-8 seasons, and maybe I will agree with you. But, NOT at this point in their CAREERS.

In Oscar's 10 seasons with the Royals he accomplished less than Lebron did in 7 in Cleveland and that was with Lebron coming straight out of high school. And I was referring to their peaks. I firmly believe that Oscar did not have the same impact on a basketball court that Lebron does.

BTW, Guokas shot .389 in 66-67. Take a look at his FG% in the 70's. He even shot .570 one season. Just ONE MORE EXAMPLE that CLEARLY demonstrates that it was MUCH MORE difficult to shoot well in the 60's.

You can pick and choose whatever you want to support your agenda. I can do the same.

Jerry West's 3 best shooting seasons.

1968- 51.4 FG%
1970- 49.7 FG%
1965- 49.7 FG%

2 of them were in the 60's.

And Goukas was a rookie barely getting any minutes in 1967, the very next season in 1968, his FG% improved to 48.3%.