How is Bill russel Top 3 Center of all time?

[oh the horror]

We can tell it to you, but we just can't understand it for you.

Bingo.

[LJJ]

We can tell it to you, but we just can't understand it for you.

I'm gonna make that one of my catchphrases.

[juju151111]

I think he's better than Shaq. Shaq, because of his selfishness and ego, has the potential to sink a franchise, which is why his stops have been relatively short. I also think Shaq gets more hype because of his dominance when he was winning championships once the competition in the post diminished. I would choose Bill over Shaq every time because of that.

Moses Malone? How is he superior to Russell?

Wilt? Wilt's greatest opponent was Russell. Despite giving up a few inches in height and some weight, Russell would out rebound Wilt and Russell got the best of Wilt several times, and he won. Wilt was possibly the greatest center ever, but whenever they matched up, Russell wasn't dominated.

Sighh why are you talking about off court stuff. Even when shaq and kobe was arguing he still passed it to him when doubled.Go look in 03 or 04.You would take russel over shaq because shaq is more dominant? Say wat?? Wilt avg something like 30 20 on him. He routinely outplayed him, but his team loss. Mosses would kill russel

[oh the horror]

There are two types of fans. The fan that looks into other aspects of the game, and then there is the fan that swears by the stat sheets.

[juju151111]

I, for one, respect the history of the game and research the past eras that I didn't get a chance to see. I hear what people who were a part of that time said about players, I read what some people write about it, I watch what I can, and that's why I can form an opinion. That's one thing I dislike about modern fans: they form opinions without any first hand experience, but they do so without even looking into the topic and taking advantage of the resources of others who did.

I did the samething. I watched many 60s Celtics gms whenever they are on nbatv( Which is alot especially last year with the celtics in the finals.) and bill russell is noting special IMHO. If i would judge them by todays standards the guards were slow and thrash. They dribbled with one hand and didn't make any movements i don't see bench players like Jordan farmar do. I respect the gm because Russell was great for BB, but don't give me this BS that russell would dominate centers like shaq and blk 2x has fast/athletic has those guys.He prime Ben wallace with passing skills at best.

[Showtime]

Sighh why are you talking about off court stuff.

I'm talking about how a player impacts his team, and when talking about how a team leader LEADS his team, both on and off the court, then that matters. Bill was a better leader both on and off the court, and Shaq was actually a liability to destroy a franchise. That matters.

Even when shaq and kobe was arguing he still passed it to him when doubled.

Eh? What does this have to do with anything? Shaq passed to Penny. He passed to Kobe. He passed to Wade. It doesn't change my point because I'm not talking about Shaq not passing.

Go look in 03 or 04.

I don't have to, because I watched those years.

You would take russel over shaq because shaq is more dominant?

No, I was making the point that the reputation of Shaq's dominance came with his days with LA, and the time when he was dominating the most and winning rings was a time after his competition in the post diminished greatly.

Wilt avg something like 30 20 on him. He routinely outplayed him, but his team loss.

lol boxscore fans. I said Bill wasn't dominated, which he wasn't, because he held his own. He put up a fight in the post, and as I said, often out rebounded him and limited him offensively.

Mosses would kill russel

With a gun, probably.

[Showtime]

If i would judge them by todays standards...

That's your problem right there. Nobody said to judge him by today's standards, and doing so is severely flawed.

I respect the gm because Russell was great for BB, but don't give me this BS that russell would dominate centers like shaq and blk 2x has fast/athletic has those guys.

Who said that? I sure didn't. You are creating arguments that aren't being presented. Russell didn't play against Shaq, so I'm not talking about that as a 1 on 1 matchup. I'm talking about how each player played in their respective eras, considering their opponents and impact. If you want to choose Shaq, well, that's your opinion. But I have my own view that is based on solid points.

He prime Ben wallace with passing skills at best.

Well, I disagree, and so do many who watched him. I would go into the many important differences between the two players, but there wouldn't be a point because if you can't see them now, you won't understand them even if somebody pointed them out.

[KobeRules24]

This is my opinion, Bill Russell is the most overrated player in the history of the league.

[juju151111]

I'm talking about how a player impacts his team, and when talking about how a team leader LEADS his team, both on and off the court, then that matters. Bill was a better leader both on and off the court, and Shaq was actually a liability to destroy a franchise. That matters.



Eh? What does this have to do with anything? Shaq passed to Penny. He passed to Kobe. He passed to Wade. It doesn't change my point because I'm not talking about Shaq not passing.



I don't have to, because I watched those years.



No, I was making the point that the reputation of Shaq's dominance came with his days with LA, and the time when he was dominating the most and winning rings was a time after his competition in the post diminished greatly.



lol boxscore fans. I said Bill wasn't dominated, which he wasn't, because he held his own. He put up a fight in the post, and as I said, often out rebounded him and limited him offensively.



With a gun, probably.

Shaq wasn't trying to destroy anything. He just speaks his mind and does his Job.LOL shaq was dominated before he even came to LA. He even put up Great stats against the dream, but he was young and had alot of TO when they doubled him. Other then TO he was beasting and shooting a higher %.Teams win chips not a player. I watch the gm and use boxscore which is the best way IMHO.

[juju151111]

That's your problem right there. Nobody said to judge him by today's standards, and doing so is severely flawed.



Who said that? I sure didn't. You are creating arguments that aren't being presented. Russell didn't play against Shaq, so I'm not talking about that as a 1 on 1 matchup. I'm talking about how each player played in their respective eras, considering their opponents and impact. If you want to choose Shaq, well, that's your opinion. But I have my own view that is based on solid points.


Well, I disagree, and so do many who watched him. I would go into the many important differences between the two players, but there wouldn't be a point because if you can't see them now, you won't understand them even if somebody pointed them out.

I know its flawed in certain ways, but when i see Ish members say Bill is better then players like the dream it pisses me off. They use the same argument 11 rings>all.

[Solid Snake]

I've said 7 other times, and I'll say it 12 more times, players/events that took place before the 70's don't COUNT. You shouldn't even have to ask why.

[indiefan23]

First, some basic questions -
Q: What should be the primary responsibility of a center?
A: Defense, controlling the flow of offense and defense in the paint. Rebounding, blocking shots, forcing team to stay out of the lane, win games.

Bill Russell did all of this. Yes, we all know he wasn't a great shooter. Nobody was back then. Dolph Schayes shot below 40% fourteen times in his fifteen year career, and he's in the hall of fame. Russell's presence forced teams to rethink their game plan. He blocked shots the right way, the way that ignites the fast break, where he was one of the master big men at such.

I have never really understood why he gets brushed under the rug so often. His height? Then why is he still #2 all time in rebounds, and probably will be for a long while because nobody can approach 20k in boards? His shooting? You win me more rings than fingers, and help most of your roster have HOF careers, you can shoot as mediocre as you want. What more should he have done, exactly? He won personal accolades, team accolades, really, what more should he have done? Most dominant ever? Maybe not in critics eyes because Wilt averaged 28 points and 28 rebounds against him, but Bill Russell won games. Won championships. More than Shaq & Kareem combined.

What more did he have to do?

I respect the guy, but you have to think about guys like Wilt and Russel. Hoop was a fledgling sport then. Bill Simmons once said that only MJ and Russel had that same quality of intensity and desire to win so I think he deserves credit for being a great player within an era.

But I can tell you this. Ball is played by 100's of millions more people then when Bill Russel played. The talent pool players come from is so much larger. When Russel played there was no 3 point shot spreading the floor. He was a great big dude instead of a power forward today, guys were not insanely athletic either. Had he had to play Shaq and Dwight Howard he's not going to have his 20 board averages anymore or his huge blocked shots. He'd also foul out in the first half trying to guard someone like Wade or Iverson.

I mean, come on, in Russel's era the 'double team' had not even been invented yet. They were not even playing 'real' basketball with strategy and defensive sets. It was more like really great pick up ball.

Think about it... today's highschool players would dominate that era's league. At 6'2" I could play small forward. So give him his credit. Its due. But the game has evolved past the point where he could compete.

[L.Kizzle]

This is my opinion, Bill Russell is the most overrated player in the history of the league.

I agree, overrated. A guy who only won 11 titles in 13 season, overrated. Now if he would have won 13 or at least 12, than I'd give him some props.

[indiefan23]

I guess we should all just ignore the intangibles that don't show up on a boxscore, such as team leadership (and coaching while playing, literally), unselfishness, constitution and mental fortitude (imagine today's ***** athletes in the racist 60's. They couldn't handle it), etc.

What Russell did was the most important thing for that team. He controlled the paint, and was possibly the best shot blocker ever (but they didn't record those stats back then). Rebounding the basketball is incredibly important. On defense, it limits the scoring chances of the opposition, while sparking the offense by the fastbreak (Russell was a great passer that ignited the Celtic's transition game). On offense, he wasn't just a Ben Wallace type who had no offensive ability. He could score (as shown when he was the team's second leading scorer), but he didn't need to because he was surrounded by other players who could fill that role. Cousy, Hondo, Jones (both), all could spread out the offensive load while Russell could control the game in the post.

If you look at the impact a prime Mutombo and Wallace had, and then imagine a better player overall who was a better passer, scorer, team leader, and winner, and you have a player that nobody should call overrated.

Dude... players in that league could not cross over dribble. 50% of the shots put up then would be pinned to the backboard today. Come on. How can you compare that to Mutumbo?

[indiefan23]

why do a bunch of people who were born in the 80's pretend to understand how important Bill Russell was?

I don't think anyone has said he was not important. I think what is being said is that in today's NBA there are like, 20 players on 30 teams that can't dunk. What do you think the number was when Bill Russel played? Do you think he could stop Shaq and Dwight Howard and Yao? Or would his 215 pounds (what I weigh) be destroyed?