Michael Jordan taught Scottie Pippen how to play like him

[Allstar24]

Wow

[Bush4Ever]

Cherry pick the year he shot the least. He averaged 20 FGA that year in the playoffs but a whopping 32 and 28 FGA in the process of getting swept in the first round 1986 and 1987.

AI averaged a fair amount of assists too--that is easy to do when you have the ball 99% of the time.

Yeah, against the best team ever (with the best defense that year) with basically no support. Big whoop.

And really, when one is putting up 44 a game, getting to the line at will, shooting 50+ percent from the floor, and playing on a team with minimal offensive talent....why would you not shoot a lot?

I've seen those games. Jordan shooting 30+ times a game was in the best interest of his team at the time.

Oddly enough he still tacked on 6+ assists per game.

[bruceblitz]

Let's look at the 85 playoffs, Jordan was a rookie, and the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round 3-1:

Remember, "they" keep blaming Jordan, who according to them didn't "share" the ball:

Jordan in 85 playoffs: 29.3ppg 5.8reb [COLOR="Red"]8.5ast [/COLOR]44%fg (rookie)
Bulls lost to the Bucks in the playoffs, Bulls had won 27 games the year before which jumped up to 38 wins with the addition of Jordan...
Jordan's supporting cast in the 85 playoffs:
Woolridge 20ppg 3.3reb 2.0ast 50%fg (Jordan set up Woolridge for a lot of good looks, he trusted Orlando)
Quinton Dailey 15ppg 3.3reb 2.8ast 42%fg
Steve Johnson 2.0ppg 1.7reb .7ast 28%fg
Dave Corzine 8.3ppg 5.5reb .8ast 66%fg

8.5 assists per game as a damn rookie, what a ball-hog!

Let's look at the 86 playoffs, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the team that went on to win the World Championship, the Boston Celtics 3-0

Jordan in 86 playoffs: 43.7ppg 6.3reb 5.7ast 50.5%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 86 playoffs:
Orlando Woolridge 21ppg 4.7reb 1.3ast 40%fg
George Gervin 0ppg .5reb .5ast 0%fg (was injured, Gervin started 75 games that year, so did the loss of Gervin have somewhat of an impact on the Bulls losing to the Celtics? That's Jordan's fault too I'm sure)
Sidney Green 6.0ppg 4.0reb 0.0ast 30%fg
Gene Banks 7.3ppg 3.3reb 1.7ast 55%fg
Charles Oakley 10.0ppg 10.0reb 1.0ast 52%fg
(this is the team you expected Jordan to lead over the World Champion Boston Celtics #1 rated defense? Crazy people!)

hmmmm

[KobeRules24]

Fair enough. Let's look at the impact other great players have had on the W-L column.

Michael Jordan: +11 (27 to 38, went from missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Magic Johnson: +13 (47 to 60, went from second round losers to NBA champs)
Kareem: +29 (27 to 56, went from missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Bird: +32 (went from 29 to 61, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Wilt: +17 (32 wins to 49, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Russell: +5 (39 wins to 44, losing to the first round to NBA champs)
Oscar: +16 (17 wins to 33)
Hakeem: +19 (29 to 48, missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Shaq: +20 (21 wins to 41)
D. Robinson: +35 (21 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Duncan: +36 (20 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Lebron: +18 (17 wins to 35)

Jordan had the least impact on the W-L column of any of these players. A similar thing could be found if you look at these players' teams the year after they left. For instance, the big drop off the Spurs had the year before Duncan being drafted was due to Robinson being injured for almost the entire season.

The "clear GOAT" could only improve a team 11 games and then do nothing in the playoffs?



20 playoff wins>1 playoff win, no?

that's easy to do when you play with great teams.rockets were contenders but never won sh!t, blazers were contenders and didn't do sh!t...pippen was not a great leader, maybe a great player but not a great leader.

[andgar923]

Posts like this is what make people against Jordan. Pip had great athletic abilities and had strong defensive instincts from day one. While I agree Jordan did help him in regards to his toughness and offensive game, Pip would have been an all-star player during his career regardless of Jordan.

Stop acting as if the 90s Bulls dynasty was all about Jordan. You, as a fellow Chicagoan, should know better.

Dude.... Pip wasn't mentally strong.

He showed promise from time to time, but he wasn't prepared yet.

Sure the same can be said about any young player, but MJ helped what could've been a solid defender, to who some consider the GOAT perimeter defender.

Don't you think playing against MJ in practice makes him better?

But MJ's impact wasn't solely on defense.

He helped his overall game but more importantly, the mental aspects of the game.

And as we've all seen, that may be as important if not more than skill (of course it varies depending on skill level).

He showed him discipline, and having a professional approach to the game. Showed him how to not settle with just being good, but great, not just great but legendary.

He took him under his wing and that's why MJ often refers to him as "my little brother."

[tastystaci]

Fact: Jordan won 1 playoff game without Pippen
Fact: Pippen won 20 playoff games without Jordan

Jacking up 40 shots a game does not lead to a lot of wins. How did your new hero Lebron do this year despite scoring 35-40 points in almost every game?

/thread. Complete pawnage IMO

[Bush4Ever]

/thread. Complete pawnage IMO

Yes, because the level of talent on Pippen's team, Pippen's role, and the level of talent FACED in the playoffs is directly comparable to MJ's.

Oh wait...they aren't even close.

I also like how the anti-MJ forces like to say "without Pippen" so they can exclude the 1988 and 1989 seasons, despite minimal influence by Pippen.

Lame.

[bruceblitz]

Let's look at the 85 playoffs, Jordan was a rookie, and the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round 3-1:

Remember, "they" keep blaming Jordan, who according to them didn't "share" the ball:

Jordan in 85 playoffs: 29.3ppg 5.8reb [COLOR="Red"]8.5ast [/COLOR]44%fg (rookie)
Bulls lost to the Bucks in the playoffs, Bulls had won 27 games the year before which jumped up to 38 wins with the addition of Jordan...
Jordan's supporting cast in the 85 playoffs:
Woolridge 20ppg 3.3reb 2.0ast 50%fg (Jordan set up Woolridge for a lot of good looks, he trusted Orlando)
Quinton Dailey 15ppg 3.3reb 2.8ast 42%fg
Steve Johnson 2.0ppg 1.7reb .7ast 28%fg
Dave Corzine 8.3ppg 5.5reb .8ast 66%fg

8.5 assists per game as a damn rookie, what a ball-hog!

Let's look at the 86 playoffs, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the team that went on to win the World Championship, the Boston Celtics 3-0

Jordan in 86 playoffs: 43.7ppg 6.3reb 5.7ast 50.5%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 86 playoffs:
Orlando Woolridge 21ppg 4.7reb 1.3ast 40%fg
George Gervin 0ppg .5reb .5ast 0%fg (was injured, Gervin started 75 games that year, so did the loss of Gervin have somewhat of an impact on the Bulls losing to the Celtics? That's Jordan's fault too I'm sure)
Sidney Green 6.0ppg 4.0reb 0.0ast 30%fg
Gene Banks 7.3ppg 3.3reb 1.7ast 55%fg
Charles Oakley 10.0ppg 10.0reb 1.0ast 52%fg
(this is the team you expected Jordan to lead over the World Champion Boston Celtics #1 rated defense? Crazy people!)

Let's look at the 87 playoffs, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the Celtics again 3-0

Jordan in 87 playoffs: 35.7ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 42%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 87 playoffs:
Charles Oakley 20.0ppg 15.3reb 2.0ast 38%fg
John Paxson 8.7ppg 1.0reb 3.7ast 50%fg
Dave Corzine 9.0ppg 7.0reb 2.3ast 45%fg
Brad Sellers 5.0ppg 2.3reb 1.0ast 31%fg
What a supporting cast! How in the hell did Jordan get swept by one of the best defenses in the NBA who ran double and triple teams at him? How in the hell did Jordan's "great" team lose that series to the reigning world champs?

[Luigi]

Posts like this is what make people against Jordan. Pip had great athletic abilities and had strong defensive instincts from day one. While I agree Jordan did help him in regards to his toughness and offensive game, Pip would have been an all-star player during his career regardless of Jordan.

Stop acting as if the 90s Bulls dynasty was all about Jordan. You, as a fellow Chicagoan, should know better.

Yup. I can't stand the Jordan is Deity complex. Makes no sense. Every possible scenario is always explained by Jordan's unmeasurable greatness. Nothing could every make Jordan better...if it was good, it had to have come from Jordan and rubbed off on the crap surrounding him. Right?

[bruceblitz]

You getting this guys? I'm exploding their dumb argument right in their faces.... keep watching....

I'm gonna go grab a couple of Chicago style hotdogs, I'll be back in a few...

[bruceblitz]

So in 2003-2004 the Lakers won 56 games
Shaq leaves L.A. and Kobe leads the Lakers to 34 wins the following year...

Why do you leave that out agenda boy?

Also notice how agenda boy has no response to this one^^^

I'll brb...

[juju151111]

Fair enough. Let's look at the impact other great players have had on the W-L column.

Michael Jordan: +11 (27 to 38, went from missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Magic Johnson: +13 (47 to 60, went from second round losers to NBA champs)
Kareem: +29 (27 to 56, went from missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Bird: +32 (went from 29 to 61, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Wilt: +17 (32 wins to 49, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Russell: +5 (39 wins to 44, losing to the first round to NBA champs)
Oscar: +16 (17 wins to 33)
Hakeem: +19 (29 to 48, missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Shaq: +20 (21 wins to 41)
D. Robinson: +35 (21 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Duncan: +36 (20 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Lebron: +18 (17 wins to 35)

Jordan had the least impact on the W-L column of any of these players. A similar thing could be found if you look at these players' teams the year after they left. For instance, the big drop off the Spurs had the year before Duncan being drafted was due to Robinson being injured for almost the entire season.

The "clear GOAT" could only improve a team 11 games and then do nothing in the playoffs?



20 playoff wins>1 playoff win, no?

hmm Mj ranked 11th all-time now huh? Good work man

[Roundball_Rock]

Why was MJ's team playing the #1 seed in the first round anyway? Why didn't MJ elevate his team like all the other all-time greats I mentioned did? If MJ could do that he wouldn't have to face Bird/McHale/Parish in the first round.

pippen was not a great leader, maybe a great player but not a great leader.

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him, 51-21 with him
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 24-11 without him, 38-9 with him
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 66 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +10

56 wins would have met that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him, 35-25 with him
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him, 39-21 with him
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-12 without him, 38-20 with him
Over 82 games: 41 wins without him (#10 in the West), 54 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

Notice a trend?

[bruceblitz]

Team record in games missed

Michael Jordan, Bulls years: 19-49 (.279)

86: 18-43

89: 0-1

92: 0-2

93: 1-3

Even the world champion Bulls suffered 1-5 without their undisputed leader.

Notice a trend?

Record as team leader
Michael Air Jordan: 640-290 (.688)

brb

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup. I can't stand the Jordan is Deity complex. Makes no sense. Every possible scenario is always explained by Jordan's unmeasurable greatness. Nothing could every make Jordan better...if it was good, it had to have come from Jordan and rubbed off on the crap surrounding him. Right?

So in 2003-2004 the Lakers won 56 games
Shaq leaves L.A. and Kobe leads the Lakers to 34 wins the following year...

Why do you leave that out agenda boy?

Shaq is top 10 all-time. What is your point? If you look at all the top 10 players their teams almost always do a lot worse when they leave. The big exceptions are Kareem leaving the Bucks...and...M...Jayyyyy....

hmm Mj ranked 11th all-time now huh?

That is a list of selected players. MJ improved his team by 11 games. That is not the 11th best improvement. It may not even be among the top 50 all-time.

MJ all-time? GOAT--but his greatness was more individual in nature than in the Magic Johnson sense of improving those around you. Magic's team went from losing in the second round to the NBA finals with him. When he retired they went from 58 wins and the NBA finals to 43 wins and losing in the first round.