one of the most honest discussions about Kobe I've ever heard

[monkeypox]

After staff get down and try to talk to Bynum, Kobe rolls his eyes and with a totally annoyed look on his face pretends to care and squats down. Never says a word, just watches for a couple seconds and gets up again totally pissed.

Then leaves it to the bench scrubs to help him off the court. He clearly does not give a damn about his own teammate and if you think differently you're the one who's totally bias, not Bill Simmons who called it exactly like it was. You don't think that has anything to do with the half-assed effort from Bynum upon his return? I do.

Pretends to care? Really think about what you've said objectively and try to separate the facts from the bias. Seriously. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person.

[jmill]

I'm dissapointed in myself for forgetting who indiefan was before I posted in this thread.

Granted, he made it obvious within a few posts that he's biased against Kobe but I didn't realize it initially.

Past indiefan posts regarding Kobe.

I'm way to bias against Kobe to accept that its him,
so I don't really want to talk about the Lakers in terms of Kobe, that's way too over done in all discussions.

JMill, where are you? I was wondering if the team lost last night, or if Kobe lost for his team?

I mean, Gasol shot 72% and Bynum shot 86%, so did like, they lose the game, or did Kobe jacking up 10 3 point shots and only hitting 2 of them do it. I could not think of a better example game of everything I said. At some point Laker fans are just going to accept that while Kobe is a pretty great individual player, he's actually just not that great a 'basketball' player. He's being out played by Melo in this series. More then anything, Kobe's true prime is over, and this just has to be accepted.

And btw, Kobe averaged 34/6/6 on 47% shooting in that series, Melo averaged 27/5/4 on 40% shooting. Okay.

Who shot ja Kobe fans? Hit'em Up!

No ones come back to this thread to explain to me how the 'best player in the works, screw that EVER!!!!' does not drive to the hole ONCE for over a whole quarter, yet is not past his prime and settling for 3's.

Is that a pin drop

Yea, but like I said I'm totally bias so there's no point in talking about Kobe.
I think the guy is mentally as weak as it gets and thats a bias I'm accepting... nothing is gonna change my mind on it really,
so I'm wondering who else is there?
I've never really thought about it before so I'm not sure at all who it is.

Hey, I hate Kobe, I'm not hiding it, but I'm not making things up. Kobe blew that series.
I watched the games and saw him trying to live by the 3, and it killed them.
When he stayed under control in the earlier games they had a shot.
Again, I really don't see whats so crazy about that interpretation

[indiefan23]

lol

I don't really take your opinion seriously, just judging by the general tone of your posts regarding Kobe. No offense.

None taken I spose, but I give Kobe credit where its due. I can tell you this jmill, if you see me complimenting Kobe on a good game (like I did for the last two denver games, where he was crazy good) it worth a hell of a lot more. Its like scoring the hot chick instead of the easy one at the bar. Harder to get cuz they've got different standards, but you know its better once they're drunk and heading back to your place.

I'm unfair to Kobe but I'm consistent. If he performs well I acknowledge it and I hold most all players to the same standards. And I will say this, Kobe is massively one of the most interesting players of all time. No one knows Kobe and I don't think he knows himself. He's kind of the Hamlet of sports.

Anyway, yea, I hate him, but I honestly love to hate him and I fully admit the NBA would not be the same without Kobe Bryant. For a lot of reasons other then what his homers would state though. I can also tell you that if I didn't hate him I'd be totally inconsistent.

Yes though, Kobe has his faults. I'm a pretty objective person and have no problem admitting he's done some dumb things in the past.

That's cool. You should take me seriously. I hate Kobe, and I think he's over rated, but I've got no problem admitting he's been nothing short of spectacular in countless games.

He's an athlete who works very hard and happens to be very good at basketball. As a result I enjoy watching him play basketball.

I don't try to make assumptions about him as a person from the limited information I have available. Good or bad. If you want to praise him, cool. If you want to break him down and criticize, cool. Doesn't interest me.

I spose. I'd argue WTF are you doing in a place like this then. Its almost all it is. But I appreciate the input.

[indiefan23]

Pretends to care? Really think about what you've said objectively and try to separate the facts from the bias. Seriously. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person.

Well, I dunno, if I just blew out my teammates knee and I cared I'd put my hand on his shoulder and say "are you okay?" even thought it was obvious he was in pain. I'd also make sure I was the one to help him of the court. I wouldn't get up and walk away. Is that unreasonable? I mean, I'm asking an honest question, is it?

[jmill]

I mean if Kobe is overrated, it's only by a small % of fans who think he's better than MJ/Lebron or something.

But then almost every player is overrated.

I think you'd be amazed how many people have told me that Allen Iverson is the best player since Jordan because " he led the league in scoring".

If anyone is overrated, it's someone like AI.

[monkeypox]

Well, I dunno, if I just blew out my teammates knee and I cared I'd put my hand on his shoulder and say "are you okay?" even thought it was obvious he was in pain. I'd also make sure I was the one to help him of the court. I wouldn't get up and walk away. Is that unreasonable? I mean, I'm asking an honest question, is it?

How on earth could you possibly know if someone was pretending to care? Seriously. It's like bad fan fiction. You don't think you're injecting just a LITTLE bias in to your horrible retelling of the event?

"Kobe smashing into Bynums knee with total disregard for human safety, glances dismissively to his demolished 'teammate' before he selfishly preens before the referees in order to get yet another bogus call in his favor. Then... as an afterthought... as though remembering some tiny bit of ignored advice... he feigns human emotion and crouches down in mock compassion for Bynum while in reality was only stretching his calves."

That's about as non-biased as what you wrote.

Listening to the radio show right now. Most honest discussion? This is Bill Simmons complaining about Kobe and his guest trying to be an apologist. It's honest if you believe everything they're saying.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Bill Simmons???.....Thread/

Simmons is alright.

Matthew Berry is a pompous tool. Mr ill-talented Bobo.

/end of thread

[indiefan23]

I'm dissapointed in myself for forgetting who indiefan was before I posted in this thread.

Granted, he made it obvious within a few posts that he's biased against Kobe but I didn't realize it initially.

Past indiefan posts regarding Kobe.

Thats hardly fair. You're cherry picking quotes from a thread I started to talk about the rest of the Lakers instead of Kobe. I didn't want it to devolve into yet another negative Kobe thread so I just said up front, hey, I don't like Kobe and think he's weak for a 100% subjective reason I really don't want to discuss, so like, lets not talk about Kobe, but who's the toughest Laker besides Kobe?

And you trolled my primarily non-hating thread with Kobe BS. Now you're back in this thread, which is totally not negative in any way about him in any way. I listened to that conversation and felt the back/fourth made me respect him a little more outside of the hesucks/hesawesome paradigm and thought it would be cool to share with the ISH love/hate community.

And btw, Kobe averaged 34/6/6 on 47% shooting in that series, Melo averaged 27/5/4 on 40% shooting. Okay.

Hmm... I said that before I'd watched the last two or three games. Melo started that series great. And you know what, Kobe played awesome in the last two games by specifically stopping the things I criticized him for and doing the thing I said he should be doing. Previously he did shoot 2 for 10 from 3 and he did spend well over an entire quarter without a single attempt from the paint. I said stop chucking 3's. Start driving the lane like he did at the end of game 2 to force the defense to collapse. Start passing to your teammates.

He stopped settling for jumpers and did that and the team has been playing much better ever since and I gave the guy his due for it. They should have cleaned Houston's clocks. They should have swept or 4-1'ed Denver. If they were playing this way they would have.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Did you guys hear Bill Simmons interview with Jerry West?

He was taking pot shots at Jerry West left and right under the premise of historical journalism. What a f'in jerk. West was bobbing and weaving with ease around Simmons without breaking a sweat or slightly losing his temper.

Simmons gained but lost more respect from me for his low class swipes at former Laker Jerry West.

Boston Red Sox cheated Bill. Eat it. Explain that to your son and father.

[jmill]

I didn't "cherrypick" anything, I chose those posts only because you admit to being biased/hating Kobe in them.

And fyi, I post on this forum because I love the NBA. I like watching and talking basketball.

I DONT like hating on players constantly and trying to break them down ala PleeezBelieve/BruceBlitz and I thought that's where you were going with this thread so I responded accordingly.

If I was wrong, my bad. It's just tiring to see people beat the same dead horse so often.

[indiefan23]

How on earth could you possibly know if someone was pretending to care? Seriously. It's like bad fan fiction. You don't think you're injecting just a LITTLE bias in to your horrible retelling of the event?

"Kobe smashing into Bynums knee with total disregard for human safety, glances dismissively to his demolished 'teammate' before he selfishly preens before the referees in order to get yet another bogus call in his favor. Then... as an afterthought... as though remembering some tiny bit of ignored advice... he feigns human emotion and crouches down in mock compassion for Bynum while in reality was only stretching his calves."

That's about as non-biased as what you wrote.

That's not what I wrote at all. Kobe hurt Bynum's knee by acident when trying to score and got up without even saying anything to him and walked away while the guy was screaming in pain on the floor. Sure I have bias, but I can't see how bias makes me miss him put a hand on Bynum's shoulder or say something to him or call the medical team over. He sits on the floor and throws his hands down in disgust. Gets up and walks away. I mean, if you can show me something differently I'll happily accept it. What am I missing?

Listening to the radio show right now. Most honest discussion? This is Bill Simmons complaining about Kobe and his guest trying to be an apologist. It's honest if you believe everything they're saying.

I don't think his guest is being an apologist. Simmons states that if Kobe wins, which he thinks he will do, Kobe is automatically top 10 all time without doubt. I don't think he's complaining. He refers to Kobe's incredible work ethic and regularly calls him the hardest working player in the league and talks about how instead of going out he stays there to watch tape in his room. Simmons also says that Kobe got the look in the 3'rd quarter and he knew, naw, he wasn't going to lose this game. He also agreed he 'loves' how serious Kobe takes the game. And he said it with pretty unbridled enthusiasm. He wants more of it.

Like I said, I think its a discussion going over some of the love and the hate and finding middle ground. That's why I thought it was honest.

[indiefan23]

I didn't "cherrypick" anything, I chose those posts only because you admit to being biased/hating Kobe in them.

I don't hide that I hate Kobe at all or ever. Nor do I pretend not to. Hating and loving players is part of sports. Its not a fault or something.

I hate algebra but I can still y=mx+b with the best of them. You neglected to include my posts from that same thread where I came on to say that Kobe played great though didn't you.

The main point is this. I hate Kobe. I'm not stupid.

And fyi, I post on this forum because I love the NBA. I like watching and talking basketball.

I DONT like hating on players constantly and trying to break them down ala PleeezBelieve/BruceBlitz and I thought that's where you were going with this thread so I responded accordingly.

If I was wrong, my bad. It's just tiring to see people beat the same dead horse so often.

Yep, you were wrong. This was more, hey, everyone who just homer/hater fights (and I've been guilty myself, but its fun sometimes), listen to this, there is a better way.

[indiefan23]

Did you guys hear Bill Simmons interview with Jerry West?

He was taking pot shots at Jerry West left and right under the premise of historical journalism. What a f'in jerk. West was bobbing and weaving with ease around Simmons without breaking a sweat or slightly losing his temper.

Simmons gained but lost more respect from me for his low class swipes at former Laker Jerry West.

Boston Red Sox cheated Bill. Eat it. Explain that to your son and father.

Waa??? What low class swipes? West totally had a good conversation with Bill. And why do you read all the columns of someone you think is so full of crap? I bet you're even saying that because House made fun of him in his podcast about it, right? ;0

[LakersLaLaLand]

Waa??? What low class swipes? West totally had a good conversation with Bill. And why do you read all the columns of someone you think is so full of crap? I bet you're even saying that because House made fun of him in his podcast about it, right? ;0

I didn't hear the House podcast. I don't follow everything.

I listen and read because he is entertaining and smart. Along with a bunch of other things.

Cmon...Indiefan...Simmons was taking pot shots at Jerry West. Mr Clutch was gracious enough to roll with the punches without taking swipes back at Bill.

Seriously though.

[indiefan23]

I mean if Kobe is overrated, it's only by a small % of fans who think he's better than MJ/Lebron or something.

But then almost every player is overrated.

I think you'd be amazed how many people have told me that Allen Iverson is the best player since Jordan because " he led the league in scoring".

If anyone is overrated, it's someone like AI.

Well, no, not really, cuz AI get shat upon on a regular basis. Its pretty much accepted that his career is a failure. I can't explain it any better then this.

During a game there was an NBA poll taken on what player in history was the best playoff performer. Out of all players, Jordan got 40%. Bird got 6%. Magic got 4%. Kobe... 34%. This is when he was tied in a series and in danger of losing cuz a 25 million dollar roster forced a game 7 and he'd never won a title as the main guy on his team, and, the past two playoff finals he shot in the low 30's and something like 25% from 3. I'm not saying it to hate on him but just think that 34% compared to magic at 4% and bird at 6% is a little ridiculously over rated.