Julius Erving vs. Scottie Pippen

[Waking_Life]

Lol at:

-people saying Julius was at a decline in the NBA
-people underestimating Dr.J as a defender

Maybe Scottie had the better career in the NBA but he's not the better player.

+1

[Jenna J]

Not even close....Dr J take this by a wide margin

[hateraid]

On a career basis Pippen's hardware was mostly gained through team success. Not trying to murk him as an individual but his accomplishments greater than Julius were his NBA championships. On an individual acheivement Julius's accomplishments far outweigh Pippen's:

MVP- Dr.J
First team NBA- Dr.J
ASG accolades- Dr.J

Defensively you may give the edge to Pippen but to me it's like saying Deke or Mouring had better careers than Shaq due to defensive acheivements.

This is basing it on strictly NBA accomplishments as well. Minus team success:

Dr.J >> Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

On a career basis Pippen's hardware was mostly gained through team success.

That cuts both ways. He won 6 championships playing with the GOAT but he would have had more individual success and accolades without Jordan.

For 1

[Bush4Ever]

That cuts both ways. He won 6 championships playing with the GOAT but he would have had more individual success and accolades without Jordan.

That is a reasonable possibility, but I might counter that you are confounding Pippen's level of projected performance because Pippen's performance, even in the absence of Jordan, was influenced by Jordan and specifically Pippen guarding Jordan every day in practice.

So you need to remove that component before assessing how Pippen would do without Jordan, because Jordan himself was a critical part of Pippen's maturation as a player, particularly on the defensive side of the ball.

[Fatal9]

Pippen without MJ would have won at least one MVP--he should have in 1994!

Shame he missed time at the start of the season and the Bulls struggled without him during an easy stretch in the schedule. They could have touched 60 wins and had the best record in the conference. I'd say Pippen probably finishes second behind Hakeem still (who is a top 10 player in his prime so no shame here!).

[Roundball_Rock]

So you need to remove that component before assessing how Pippen would do without Jordan, because Jordan himself was a critical part of Pippen's maturation as a player, particularly on the defensive side of the ball.

Let's suppose MJ never came back after 1993. Pippen's prime was from 1992-97. In 1995 he finished 7th in MVP voting, barely behind 6th place Barkley. It is reasonable to say he would have made it to the top 5 if MJ did not return and take away the spotlight from Pippen's fantastic season. What is more intriguing, of course, is 1996-98. The Bulls acquiring Rodman had nothing to do with MJ so it would have happened even if MJ stayed retired. The Bulls won 72, 69, and 62 (on pace for 66 when Pippen played) during this time. It is reasonable to assume that this team without MJ would have won at least one championship (probably two, 1996 and 1997). Would Pip have won the MVP in one of these seasons? He was 5th in 96' and very close to 4th place Hakeem even with MJ playing on his team. We know he was 3rd on a 55 win team. It is pretty likely that he would have won the MVP in 1996. In 1998 he missed almost half the season so that is out. 1997? I doubt the voters would have given him two in a row.

I'd say Pippen probably finishes second behind Hakeem still (who is a top 10 player in his prime so no shame here!).

Perhaps and you are right, Hakeem was great and that was his best season so there is no shame losing to him.

Missing ten games doubly hurt him. He missed enough games to affect his team's seeding (if game 7 against NY is in Chicago they win anyway, regardless of arguably the worst call ever by Hue Hollins in game 5) but not enough to make a dramatic turnaround with him. Let's see he missed 20 games and the team went 8-12 without him. They won 71% of the time with him so that translate to 44-18 over 62 games. If that happened then he would have had a great chance to win the MVP.

[97 bulls]

Dr, J was a basketball revolutionary. Dozens of players after him can point to his style as highly influencial on them. Pippen was great in his own right but his impact was far less compared to Erving's.

That said I'm still taking Dr. J. The NBA #'s might be decieving but Dr.J's prime athletic years were spent in the just as competitive ABA.

dr j was a revolutionary, but alot of great players patern their games after pip.

[Bush4Ever]

Let's suppose MJ never came back after 1993. Pippen's prime was from 1992-97. In 1995 he finished 7th in MVP voting, barely behind 6th place Barkley. It is reasonable to say he would have made it to the top 5 if MJ did not return and take away the spotlight from Pippen's fantastic season. What is more intriguing, of course, is 1996-98. The Bulls acquiring Rodman had nothing to do with MJ so it would have happened even if MJ stayed retired. The Bulls won 72, 69, and 62 (on pace for 66 when Pippen played) during this time. It is reasonable to assume that this team without MJ would have won at least one championship (probably two, 1996 and 1997). Would Pip have won the MVP in one of these seasons? He was 5th in 96' and very close to 4th place Hakeem even with MJ playing on his team. We know he was 3rd on a 55 win team. It is pretty likely that he would have won the MVP in 1996. In 1998 he missed almost half the season so that is out. 1997? I doubt the voters would have given him two in a row.

I am only speaking about Pippen as he matured into his prime, not during MJ's retirement. There is no question Pippen was a top 5 player circa 1994 with or without Jordan, but he might not have aquired the skills (at least to the same degree) prior to that point, if he had never played with MJ, guarded him in practice, etc...

There is no way to prove it one way or the other, but it is interesting to consider.

[Fatal9]

I am only speaking about Pippen as he matured into his prime, not during MJ's retirement. There is no question Pippen was a top 5 player circa 1994 with or without Jordan, but he might not have aquired the skills (at least to the same degree) prior to that point, if he had never played with MJ, guarded him in practice, etc...

There is no way to prove it one way or the other, but it is interesting to consider.

Can we say the same thing about MJ then too? His post game and man to man defense among other things, really didn't improve until around the time Pippen came in.

[Bush4Ever]

Can we say the same thing about MJ then too? His post game and man to man defense among other things, really didn't improve until around the time Pippen came in.

There is absolutely no question Pippen helped, but there is also no question MJ's contributions to Pippen's development were greater than Pippen's contributions to Jordan's development.

His man to man defense was always pretty good, and by most accounts really became exceptional in 1988, when he made all-NBA defense 1st team, led the league in steals, and won defensive player of the years as a guard. In 1988, Pippen was pretty much a non-factor as a player, so I think in terms of individual defense, the vast majority of the foundation for his defense was already there.

[Fatal9]

There is absolutely no question Pippen helped, but there is also no question MJ's contributions to Pippen's development were greater than Pippen's contributions to Jordan's development.

His man to man defense was always pretty good, and by most accounts really became exceptional in 1988, when he made all-NBA defense 1st team, led the league in steals, and won defensive player of the years as a guard. In 1988, Pippen was pretty much a non-factor as a player, so I think in terms of individual defense, the vast majority of the foundation for his defense was already there.

His man to man defense really didn't improve until around '89. Always had quick hands and played passing lanes well but it didn't become exceptional until '89 at the earliest, '90 at the latest. And around that time, Pippen was more than a non-factor.

I really don't care how much who made who better but it is always so one-sided.

[Roundball_Rock]

Perhaps.

I am not saying that MJ made Pippen worse. What I am saying is that MJ dragged Pippen's stats and accolades down. Pippen's detractors love to point to him playing with MJ but they ignore the other side of the coin. If he did not play with MJ, and especially if MJ did not come back, he would have likely done all those things they criticize him for: win a ring as the team leader, win a finals MVP, probably win a regular season MVP as well. They also point to his career stats, which are hurt by him playing until he was 38, but they are also hurt by all those seasons playing with the GOAT. As we saw in 1994 in comparison to 1993 and then directly in 1995 when MJ came back Pippen averaged a lot more points, had a much higher PER without MJ. Prime Pippen would have been the #1 player on practically any other team in the league. On a handful of teams (i.e. with Hakeem or Shaq) he would have been a 1a/1b player in the Magic/Kareem sense rather than a #1/#2 in the Jordan/Pippen sense.

Would Pippen rank higher on the all-time lists without MJ? I think so. You need to win championships as the team leader and a MVP to reach the top tiers. If he won, say, even one championship as the team leader and one MVP combine that with him being the GOAT perimeter defender and he would would easily be top 15 all-time. Right now he is usually top 30 on most people's lists and the highest he ever goes is top 20.

All of this said, I bet if you asked Pippen if he would rather win even 2 championships and 1 MVP and be considered top 15 all-time or win 6 rings, no MVP's and be considered top 30 all-time I am sure he would prefer the latter.

Can we say the same thing about MJ then too?

MJ does. : )

[Bush4Ever]

His man to man defense really didn't improve until around '89. Always had quick hands and played passing lanes well but it didn't become exceptional until '89 at the earliest, '90 at the latest.

Evidence please.

And yes, I know they helped each other. You'd have to be a fool to not see that. But it was not an equal relationship. Jordan helped both the Bulls and Pippen more than Pippen helped the Bulls and Jordan.

That's not a knock on Pippen at all.

[Bush4Ever]

Perhaps.

I am not saying that MJ made Pippen worse. What I am saying is that MJ dragged Pippen's stats and accolades down. Pippen's detractors love to point to him playing with MJ but they ignore the other side of the coin. If he did not play with MJ, and especially if MJ did not come back, he would have likely done all those things they criticize him for: win a ring as the team leader, win a finals MVP, probably win a regular season MVP as well.

Yes, with the skills that Jordan majorly helped Pippen develop.

If you want to account for Jordan's influence, you have to remove all of the influence, good (majorly developing Pippen's skills), and bad (lowering statistical outputs). I'm not sure if you remove all of the influence, that Pippen is doing much better than his 1994 season, although I will fully admit it is possible. I just don't think you can know.

By the way, I like Pippen tons. Inside my top 20 all-time easily.