The GOAT List: 100 Greatest Players in Basketball History

[G.O.A.T]

Two questions, merely out of curiosity:

1 - Why are you confident that Davies, and not Arnie Risen, was the best player on the '51 Royals? From what I've read, it's been difficult to discern that.

2 - From what a can gather, each NBA / BAA champion is represented, with the exception of the '48 Bullets. I guess that's not really too surprising; even the '47 Warriors had Fulks. My question is, does anyone on the squad come anywhere remotely close to ranking in your top 250? Simmons, Jeannette, or anyone?

1. Davies was an all-NBA first team regular and before that an all-NBL regular. He was the leader of the team and had taken Rochester to a Championship already in 1946 before Risen arrived. I'm not sure what you've read other than stat sheets or single game articles that would give you the idea that Risen was held in the same regard as Davies. Everything I've come across gives Davies far more credit for that season and for his career overall. Risen was a nice player, and '51 was sort of his breakout year. But he never even made an all-NBA team in his career. Further evidence of Davies superiority was shown in 1971 when he was selected to the NBA's silver anniversary team.

2. No, I choose Mikan and Pollard to represent the '48 season. The Lakers were still in the NBL at that point, but between Minneapolis, Rochester and Syracuse, that league probably had the best three teams. If I were to use the Bullets Jeanette would be the guy, but his best years came during and pre-WWII. He was almost 30 by the time the BAA was started. Plus the Bullets came from the ABL, not the NBL. The BAA needed another team to bring their total back up to eight after losing three teams that By the 1940's the ABL was really a second-rate league. Their winning the title just sort of shows where the BAA was at and how important a merger would be, adding stars like Mikan and Davies and eventually by the time it happened Dolph Schayes.

In addition '48 was a kooky season for the BAA. They reduced the schedule to 48 games, fewest in league history because of the eight teams. The playoffs still had the stupid set-up where the division winners played each other in a seven game series for one spot in the finals and the other temas battled it out in best of three's for the second spot. Philadelphia and Fulks exhausted themselves playing seven games against and four at St. Louis the Western most team in the league. While Baltimore needed just five total games to beat New York and Chicago and await the Warriors.

In regards to Connie Simmons, he found his way into a lot of big games during his career. He played in four finals, only winning the one time with Baltimore, but he frequently had big games in the finals. He was Baltimore's leading scorer in four of the six games in '48 and even had a 25 point game in an era when such a thing was uncommon. In '53 he led the Knicks in scoring in three of five games. Most notably in the 1952 Finals Simmons scored 30 points in a 90-89 OT win for the Knicks over Mikan and the Lakers. Big George had 32.

[G.O.A.T]

Some really difficult ones for me in this tier.
The only guy that sticks out to me is Dumars. I'd rank him higher, possibly even in the next tier. He was just as important to the Pistons teams as Isiah, he was a leader, amazing defender, great passer, very good scorer and shooter. He didn't have as good of a peak as Isiah, or career, but in 89 and 90, he was equal and possibly better then Isiah was. I'd Rank Worthy a lot lower, but I'll talk about that later.

As much as I love Joe Dumars you are exaggerating his impact a bit.

He simply was not as important to those teams as Isiah. When the Pistons we're wrapping up the first title, even though Dumars would win the MVP, most of the Pistons embraced Isiah as he came to the bench. John Salley hugged him and can be heard said "You made this S[COLOR="Black"]h[/COLOR]it Happen"

Dumars wasn't a leader of those teams from 88-90. The leaders were Zeke, Mahorn and Laimbeer. At least according to Daly, Salley and Blaha.

I do think he was their second best player and deserving of the '89 Finals MVP. And this will be the first year I keep him out of the top 50 if I don't change my mind. Still, I can't having lived through it in the city agree with the notion that Dumars was on Isiah's level of importance during those titles.

1. Sam Jones is a stand out. He might even be a notch below West/Robertson. I think Lucas was better than Dave DeBusschere. I'd switch Greer with Dumars.

I was never sold on Dave Debu. I agree he was a very solid player but I don't rank him higher than Bobby D or Dennis Johnson.

Sam Jones resume is simply too limited to put him much higher. Besides that his game fit perfectly into a support role, whereas Oscar and West could be featured players with the array of skills.

Lucas and DeBusschere is a tough one. The deciding factor for me was their rol on the Knicks. These are two guys the same age, and on that team Dave was a star and Lucas a role player. Both were great outsider shooters, Lucas was a slightly better all-around scorer and rebounder and DeBusschere was a better defender and more versatile overall player.

Tiny I have as the second best player on that 81 team. Rondo reminds me of Tiny. Tiny went from being a unstoppable offensive force to a true play maker. I have Tiny in a top 40. As you always say Tiny played at a level that is top 5 PG just didn't have the team support. When he did have the team support he was a major factor in helping win a title.

I can't put Tiny above Parish that year. Chief was at his best, I remember watching a reply of one game where he was mentioned as an MVP candidate. All that said, Archibald's role on that team gets minimized a lot, he was fantastic for the Celtics.

Move THurmond behind Mcadoo. Mac has a MVP and at one time was considered one of if not the best player in the league Thurmond never had that peek.

Thurmond finished second in the MVP voting to Wilt in '67, no that's not an MVP, but when you consider that McAdoo won his award in '75, a low point for the NBA, when Kareem had his worst season team wise and the Braves still lost early in the playoffs.


On the subject of Wallace vs. Rodman

That's really tough. I looked at their career stats and decided that Wallace had about 7 (maybe 5 or 6) all star level seasons and Rodman had 9 all star level seasons. I think I'd rather have Rodman because bigman who can go out and guard periemter players as well as play great post defense are rare and impact defenses about as much as any player can.

Dennis Rodman, Rodman was a force for three different teams and won titles with two of them (Pistons, Bulls.) Wallace is great defender, but after he left Detroit, he really disappointed me in Chicago.

Its not even close between Rodman and Ben. I always say look at how a player did with other teams. Rodman was still Rodman on every team he played with. Ben was a below avg. Center on every other team he played with. This shows if its the player or the system. With Ben it was the Pistons system.I saw him with the Bullets/Wizzards at best he is a backup C.

Even though I do have Rodman over Big Ben, I am surprised at how many people, including all of you are for Rodman so clearly. I think Dennis had the better career sure, but at no point could you build your team around the Worm and be a title contender. Wallace was never anything but a positive presence around his teammates, Rodman could be a distraction. Plus Ben has twice as many DPOTY's and more All-NBA selections. Still Rodman's five rings are hard to look past, appreciate all your perspectives.

Celtics rankings...

1-Sam Jones (fairly easy choice)
2-Archibald
3-DJ
4-Pierce
5-Parish
6-Sharman (I've only seen him play once, so probably not a fair assesment)

I'd rank them.
Jones
Archibald
Parish
DJ
Pierce
Sharman

Looks like we're all pretty close here.

The DJ/Archibald thing was the toughest for me.

----------------------------------------------------

The following just further demonsrates why Worthy confuses me so much.

4-I think Worthy is a way to high. Maybe 75 is a better spot for him to me. He's one of those players who's fame is a product of being on a bunch of really good teams more then really being an amazing player. He was an okay passer, good but not great shooter, pretty good post player, and more then anything was a good finisher who really made a living off of Magic's passing, but none of these things are really all time great, but more like Danny Granger or Brandon Roy level, neither of who are going to end up top 100 most likely. He reminds me of Pau, who before going to the Lakers wasn't going to be remembered by anyone, even though he was a great post player, but he still isn't really at an all time great level at anything.

Worthy Why so many people don't see his great talent I don't understand. I personally would take Worthy over Mchale and Pippen.He could run the floor better than Mchale and Post better than Pippen.An underrated Defender as were most of the Lakers players . 5 titles says they must have been ok on defense. Worthy had the skill of being able to be effective without dominating the ball.I dont think I have ever seen anyone quicker with post moves than Worthy. Yes include Hakeem and Barkley Worthy had the fastest first step in the post I have ever seen.What makes the 87 Lakers better than the 86 Celtics is Worthy. By 87 Worthy had established himself as the second best player on the Lakers. Too quick for Bird or Mchale to effectively defend.

Worthy is a bit too high. Worthy is very hard to rank. He's probably better than his numbers showed. But I don't know if he's this much better than the other star sfs from the 8s like King, English, ect.

Did Worthy have limited numbers because he was a limited player or because he was filling his role on one of the greatest dynasties ever?

Thanks for the help and insight as always you guys!

[magnax1]

As much as I love Joe Dumars you are exaggerating his impact a bit.

He simply was not as important to those teams as Isiah. When the Pistons we're wrapping up the first title, even though Dumars would win the MVP, most of the Pistons embraced Isiah as he came to the bench. John Salley hugged him and can be heard said "You made this Shit Happen"

Dumars wasn't a leader of those teams from 88-90. The leaders were Zeke, Mahorn and Laimbeer. At least according to Daly, Salley and Blaha.

I do think he was their second best player and deserving of the '89 Finals MVP. And this will be the first year I keep him out of the top 50 if I don't change my mind. Still, I can't having lived through it in the city agree with the notion that Dumars was on Isiah's level of importance during those titl

es.
I don't really see why I'm exaggerating his impact. There wasn't really much that Isiah was obviously better at. He created more for his team mates, though he wasn't exactly at another tier of scorer by 89. Dumars was a much better defender, and he was a big part of them being able to get by the Bulls both years. I think the only difference between the two is that Dumars just didn't get the credit. He was never a guy who made huge plays, but a guy who was consistent, didn't really make many mistakes or have to use the ball alot, but just got things done.
I don't know a lot about the leadership, but watching the games he seemed like a leader. Maybe it's because I watched him a lot during the late 90's too when he was definitely the leader of the teams.

Did Worthy have limited numbers because he was a limited player or because he was filling his role on one of the greatest dynasties ever?

He definitely didn't have a limited impact, but I don't think he's really near a guy like TMac, Dantley or one of those other Forwards who had really good careers but never won as much as Worthy.

[Niquesports]

es.
I don't really see why I'm exaggerating his impact. There wasn't really much that Isiah was obviously better at. He created more for his team mates, though he wasn't exactly at another tier of scorer by 89. Dumars was a much better defender, and he was a big part of them being able to get by the Bulls both years. I think the only difference between the two is that Dumars just didn't get the credit. He was never a guy who made huge plays, but a guy who was consistent, didn't really make many mistakes or have to use the ball alot, but just got things done.
I don't know a lot about the leadership, but watching the games he seemed like a leader. Maybe it's because I watched him a lot during the late 90's too when he was definitely the leader of the teams.

He definitely didn't have a limited impact, but I don't think he's really near a guy like TMac, Dantley or one of those other Forwards who had really good careers but never won as much as Worthy.

I have never talked to anyone that saw the Bad Boys play that would say Dumars was better or had even close the impact Isiah had.Really its like saying Tony parker had equal the impact Duncan had. Silly right so you get the point.I have never understood why Worthy gets so little respect yet Mchale is always thought to be such a Great player,which he was,.Worthy was just a Great as Mchale was do the lakers win the 87 title without him ????? How about 88 ????

[Owl]

33. Wes Unseld (MVP, Team leader 1978 NBA Champions)
34. Elvin Hayes (All-NBA 1st Team 3x, Leading scorer 1978 NBA Champions)
35. Dolph Schayes (All-NBA 1st team 6x, Best Player 1955 NBA Champions)
36. Dirk Nowitzki (MVP, Best player 2006 Runner-up)
37. Allen Iverson (MVP, Best player 2001 Runner-up)
38. Kevin McHale (All-NBA 1st Team, 2nd best player 1984, 1986 NBA Champions)
39. Dwayne Wade (All-NBA 1st Team 2x, Finals MVP 2006 NBA Champions)
40. Clyde Drexler (All-NBA 1st Team, 2nd best player 1995 NBA Champions, Best Player 1990, 1992 Runner-up)
41. Steve Nash (MVP 2x, Best Player Conference Finalist 2x)
42. Patrick Ewing (All-NBA 1st Team, Best player 1994 Runner-up)
43. George Gervin (All-NBA 1st Team 5x, Best player Conference Finalist 2x)
44. Jason Kidd (All-NBA 1st Team 5x, Best Player 2002, 2003 Runner-up)
45. Gary Payton (All-NBA 1st Team 2x, Best Player 1996 Runner-up)
46. Paul Arizin (All-NBA 1st Team 3x, Best Player 1956 NBA Champions)
47. Billy Cunningham (All-NBA 1st Team 3x / ABA MVP, 4th Best Player 1967 NBA Champions)



1. Which players stand out as too high or too low?
Iverson way high. Unseld too high MVP yes but a dubious one (a la McAdoo) great intangibles and rebounding but not a great offensive or defensive player. Gervin is a little too high for me too, is he that much better than 80’s scorers like English, Dantley, King etc. Nash is a little low for my taste, I’m not sure there has been a better offensive pg (Chris Paul probably closest, Stockton and Magic obviously close and with huge advantages in defense and rebounding respectively).
2. How do you rank the PG's (Nash/Kidd/Payton) and the SG's (Iverson/Drexler/Wade/Gervin) in this group?
pgs- I’d agree with Nash as 1st and v difficult to decide between the other two. Nash easily the worst defender but the pg position is to me more about team offense (bigs tend to offer more to team defense) and in both Dallas and Phoenix two of the greatest offensive machines ever being selfless to a fault (could have scored more but kept everyone involved) and was super efficient when he called his own number.
As magnax1 mentioned he has made teammates like Marion, Stoudemire, Diaw (and I would add Bell, Barbosa) better. Actually take a look at Phoenix’s present roster and tell me that with an average pg in for Nash how many games they’d win (20?).
Payton is one of the top 2 defensive pgs all time (with Frazier) but Kidd was better out of the box (Payton struggled his first 2 seasons) and has aged better. On offense Kidd is the better passer (and in his later years a better shooter) and the better “pg”, Payton the better scorer.
Argh can’t decide between the two- that’s why I have massive respect for anyone who has done a (considered) list. My leaning (today at least) is Kidd, though my gut reaction- off the top of my head, without thinking it through would be Payton.

As for shooting guards
1) Wade: Based on current trajectory he doesn’t belong in this group, but if his career ended tomorrow I could probably justify him being behind
2) Clyde Drexler: The number one guy on a very good team in the late 80’s early 90’s. A complete guard strong in all areas overshadowed by playing in the same era as MJ (and playing in a small market).
3) George Gervin- Efficient high usage scorer (right up there with MJ in this respect) but couldn't defend his way out of a wet paper bag. One dimensional player – with him as your best player 2nd round is a far as you’re likely to go.
4) AI- Much maligned for being too gangsta – cornrows, bowling incident, “practice” quotes etc. The practice thing was overblown and showed more than anything (at least I hope and believe) poor judgement rather than poor work ethic. But like Gervin, Iverson is a one dimensional scorer only he did so on worse percentages. Iverson may have exerted more effort on D BUT his steals titles have to come with major asterisks because they were as a result of reckless gambling. Difficult to construct a team around- a two in a one’s body he dominates the ball like a 1 but doesn’t look to pass and too short to guard 2s (Eric Snow was the ideal backcourt mate for him- defensive specialist, could cover 2’s and stayed out of Iverson’s way on offense).
3. Does Cunningham Belong with this group or does he fit better with Sam Jones, Worthy, Debusschere, Lucas, Dumars, Archibald, McAdoo, Thurmond etc. ?
Cunningham belongs where he is near the bottom of this set but above the aforementioned players.

4. Unseld or Hayes? I've heard good arguments from both sides. I prefer Unseld's game and history has been kinder to him, but Hayes has the better resume on paper and by the end of the 70's it was Hayes who was garnering the greater individual honors playing alongside Unseld on that Bullets front line. So who you got?
Hayes better offensive player, better defensive player, not that much worse at rebounding and obviously much worse intangibles but still, given the gap at both ends Hayes all the way.

[Owl]

48. Sam Jones (Second best player '64, '65 and '66 Champions)
49. Dave DeBusschere (Second best player '73 Champs, 3rd best player '70 Champs)
50. James Worthy (Second best player on '87 & '88 Champs; Finals MVP in '88)
51. Nate Thurmond (2nd in MVP voting 1967)
52. Bob McAdoo (MVP in '75, Sixth man for '82 & '85 Champs)
53. Nate Archibald (3x 1st Team all-NBA, 3rd best player on '81 Champs)
54. Jerry Lucas (3x 1st Team all-NBA, Sixth man for '73 Champs)
55. Robert Parish (Second best player for '81 Champs, 3rd best player for '84 & '86 Champs)
56. Dennis Johnson (Finals MVP and part of 1A/1B/1C big three for '79 Champs, Fourth best player for '84 and '86 Champs)
57. Joe Dumars (Second best player for '89 & '90 Champs; Finals MVP in '89)
58. Paul Pierce (Second best player for '08 Champs; Finals MVP in '08)
59. Dennis Rodman (Third best player for '90, '96, '97 & '98 Champs; 2-time Defensive Player of the Year)
60. Ben Wallace (Best player for '04 Champs; 4-time Defensive player of the year)
61. Hal Greer (2nd best player for '67 Champs; 7x All-NBA second-team)
62. Bill Sharman (4x 1st team all-NBA, 3rd best player on '57 and '59 Champs; fourth best player on '60 Champs)
63. Earl Monroe (3rd best player for '73 Champs; 1A/1B for '71 Runner-up)
64. Reggie Miller (Best player for 2000 Runner-up; Five ECF)

The questions:

1. Who stands out? Too high? Too low?
Worthy too high (see below). DJ too high, one of a number of good players on a weak champ in weak era, disruptive enough to be traded straight up for Rickey Robey- thereafter a role player who lucked into a good situation. Dumars should probably be a little closer to Laimbeer (Dumars down a bit, Laimbeer up a bit, but then I also think Thomas should be waaay down, he got too much credit for being the best offensive player

[Owl]

I had typed the below before fully catching up on your posts and hence reading that you are doing era adjustments. I decided to carry on writing rather than edit it after I carried on reading because I went on to make a bunch of other points. Anyway the quote immediately below renders some of it irrelevent.

[Doctor Rivers]

Time to move Wade up in your rankings.

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks Owl, I'll give you the response your posts deserve when I have enough time to do so.

[Owl]

Any updates as to when the book will see the light of day?

To generate further debate on Worthy (not saying I necessarily buy into all the following arguments, just taking my actual belief that he's overrated and turning the argument WAAY up)

Remember that massive list of 80's forward scorers I gave. Well I forgot (well never knew and BkB-referenced) that Purvis Short twice broke 25ppg in the mid eighties. Worthy's highest ppg in that rocket paced era 21.4 in 90-91. And his ts% slumped that year to .531 then went through the floor after Magic retired (never again reaching .500, his fg% thereafter remained below 45%).
Worthy's peak PER is 20.4, Cedric Ceballos has 3 years better than that. And again he didn't have Magic passing the ball.

He has exactly 2 all-NBA 3rd team awards, ranking him on a par with Derrick Coleman, Stephon Marbury, Manu Ginobili, Dennis Rodman and Shawn Marion.

If you want to rank Worthy highly based on his postseason exploits and entangiables that's fine but be aware that the tangiables (awards and numbers) suggest he wasn't that special.

[Boston C's]

there is no way ray should be that low... should be in the 60-75 range

[jwmann2]

Lebron has got to be top 10, regardless of what the haters are saying. Kobe too, when you're on top, there's envy.

http://www.FromThisSeat.com

[magnax1]

I have never talked to anyone that saw the Bad Boys play that would say Dumars was better or had even close the impact Isiah had.Really its like saying Tony parker had equal the impact Duncan had.

Isiah was a great player, no doubt, but his impact on those 89 and 90 teams is massively over rated. As Owl said, it is kind of similar to Rose getting credit for the Bulls winning 60 this year, when it really had a lot to do with them being the top defense and one of the top rebounding teams. I've always said that Isiah was one of the top point guards in his peak, but he fell off quickly. In 89 and 90, he was definition of inconsistent and inefficient offense. People tend to remember players best games like Isiah dropping 25 with the hurt ankle, but what they don't remember is that in 90 (Chose it over 89 because Isiah was injured some that year) Isiah had 33 games with lower then a 40% field goal % averaged 4 turnovers a game, and shot an unbearable 50% TS% over the year. I don't really like using stats like that, but it gets the point across. Isiah just wasn't the same as he was in year before. Despite using the ball less, he still shot a lower% and turned it over just as much. Dumars was more consistent, and impacted the game in many ways. So yeah, it's pretty easy for me to say that Dumars had just as large of an impact as Isiah during those championship runs.

Silly right so you get the point.I have never understood why Worthy gets so little respect yet Mchale is always thought to be such a Great player,which he was,.Worthy was just a Great as Mchale was do the lakers win the 87 title without him ????? How about 88 ????

That's just not true. Worthy really wasn't as good at anything as McHale. You name it, McHale was better. Better scorer, rebounder, much much better defender, better half court scorer. Worthy however was probably a better passer, or at least he was a willing passer which was something McHale struggled at through most of his career. I will say that Worthy probably could've scored more in a different situation (in the 23-24 ppg range, and that's what he often did in the playoffs) but he wouldn't have been a 55%+ shooter any year without Magic feeding him great passes on the fast break and getting him easy buckets in half court situations. McHale was a completely self sustained 22+ ppg and 60+ TS% scorer with all NBA D through 2/3rds of his career. I don't think there is any year you could say that about Worthy honestly.

[magnax1]

Also wanted to ask GOAT if he thought Wade should be higher after this season and playoff run.

[Rose]

Magnax.

Although I don't think Isiah's influence on those teams is that overrated. Overstated? absolutely. Dumars was pretty goddamn good in every game I've seen from the 89-90 run.