The GOAT List: 100 Greatest Players in Basketball History

[GP_20]

You are very funny I bet if you made your mind up that the sky was pink even if you looked up and saw a bright clear blue sky you would still argue that the sky is yellow.

Why do people the game to achive personal and team sucess laying out what Tiny has done and what Kj has done Tiny easly wins sad part is you go on and on and its not even close
Its not like a Bird avs magic or Jordan vs Kobe or Jabbar vs Shaq thats the sad part. But you make up all these Tiny this TIny could lead a team to the playoffs well KJ could lead a team to a championship
So you can go on and on and believe in fairy tales but guess what wont change

Tiny has a TOP 50 Jacket
TIny has a RIng
Tiny has a bust in the HOF
Tiny has a All Star game MVP trophy
Tiny has a ALL NBA FIRST TEAM plaque
All things KJ doesnt have
oh wait
KJ has you as the president of his fan club
TIny doesnt

Nique please don't make me counter those arguments again. I have so many times. But you repeat them. Stop acting like Sir Charles.

Here let's do it again.


Top 50/HOF - First of all, KJ still has a chance for HOF, and his career was not over when Top 50 were selected unlike Tiny's.

But more importantly, KJ is one of the most underrated players of all-time. By definition, he will be overlooked. So the fact that he isn't in the HOF yet isn't surprising at all. Same with Top 50.



All-NBA 1st- KJ peaked around the same time Magic and Jordan did. Neither Tiny, nor any guard in NBA history would've made All-NBA 1st if they peaked when KJ did. Even peaking Stockton was unable to make All-NBA 1st when Magic/MJ were peaking. I can't blame KJ for that.

And thats why awards are all subjective to time/competition.


Rings/Team Success- Tiny got team success and a ring, when he was out of his pirme.







And there you go, you have no argument left. The end.

[GP_20]

I hate GP_20, but even I think he's got the better argument for KJ. KJ was the f*cking man in his prime Phoenix years.

I haven't used any of my strong bullets yet. I have so many good argument for KJ left, this is not close at all.


Follow this debate and see.

[GP_20]

Tiny Archibald vs. Kevin Johnson

Tiny Archibald
1972-1977

385 games

26.7ppg
8.9apg
2.7rpg
46.9% FG
Average wins per year 32-33


Kevin Johnson
1989-1992

310 games

21.2ppg
11.1apg
3.8rpg
50.0% FG
Average wins per year 54-55







Now choose who you got.

The 21/11/50% player on a 55 win team.
Or the 27/9/47% player on a 33 win team.





End of Tiny vs. KJ comparison. Quickly examining, even pure statistics show KJ was better for a PG.

Tiny scored more, while KJ got more assists and scored more efficiently. Passing is more important for a PG than scoring, thus KJ racked up more assists, and scored at a more efficient rate. I would say KJ is better statistically. Factor in what kind of teams they put those numbers in, and it's not even close.

[GP_20]

Also, another comparison tool, and to give us an idea of how biased NiqueSports is

TIny was quicker and KJ was the better shooter

However, Tiny Archibald had something else to say about that.

PRO BASKETBALL; Speedy Johnson Races to the Top
GOLDAPER, SAM. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1991. pg. A.6

He is nearly 25 years old, looks younger and has an altar boy demeanor. He is earning $1,750,000 this season and will reach $2,750,000 in 1995 as part of his seven-year, $15 million contract. Not bad for someone who grew up in the poor section of Sacramento, Calif., thinking baseball rather than basketball.

He is Kevin Johnson, K.J. to some, the point guard of blinding speed, quickness, athleticism, passing ability and penetration for the Phoenix Suns. He is also the starting point guard for the Western Conference in today's National Basketball Association All-Star Game in Charlotte, N.C.

While Johnson has gained increasing individual recognition, he has been even more impressive as a part of the team resurgence of the Suns, who have risen from 28 victories in 1987-88 to become a title contender in the last three seasons.

"He has meant everything to this team," said Cotton Fitzsimmons, who took over as the Suns' coach for the 1988-89 season.

That was the season Johnson gained membership in the exclusive 20-10 club by averaging 20.4 points and 12.2 assists a game. He was in lofty company: Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson and Nate Archibald are the only other players to have accomplished the feat in the history of the N.B.A. He did it again last year and is well on his way to a reprise again this season, averaging 22.2 points (14th in the league), 10.1 assists (4th) and 2.5 steals (5th) after 46 games.

Johnson, who prefers using "we," instead of "I," would rather not discuss being a member of that illustrious club.

But when pressed, he did.

"It wasn't my goal; it's just something that occurred," Johnson said. "My goal is always for the team to have a successful season. Magic and Isiah are my contemporaries and they have championship rings. So does Robertson and Archibald. If I want to be considered in their category, I've got to get a ring. That's how I look at it."

Johnson is often compared with outstanding players past and present, and the same names keep coming up. An informal survey of several players, coaches and general managers produced opinions that the right-handed Sun guard can penetrate like Magic Johnson, is as quick with the ball as John Stockton, and is as good with his left hand as Larry Bird.

But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."

Tom Chambers, Johnson's high-scoring teammate, said, "K.J. has the quickest first step I've ever seen."

Rory Sparrow, the Sacramento Kings' playmaker, said: "He has unbelievable quickness and is a great jumper. He's very tough to guard. The best way to do it is to back off on him and make him prove he can consistently hit the outside jumper."

"K.J. is a rocket," said Maurice Cheeks, the Knicks' point guard. "He's so explosive that he almost invites you to double-team him so he can get by you."

"Tiny was slicker," said Fitzsimmons, who has coached many other outstanding point guards, Archibald and Phil Ford among them, in his 18 years as an N.B.A. coach. "He really knew how to maneuver. Kevin has a great step to basket and is a more physical player. I take him for granted; he's the best I've ever coached. The only way to stop Kevin is to hold him. If the officials don't curtail it, he's unstoppable."

Paul Westphal and Lionel Hollins, both former All-Star guards, now assistant coaches with the Suns, have helped Johnson expand his natural repertory. Naturally ambidextrous, Westphal, who is scheduled to be the Suns' coach when Fitzsimmons retires, has taught Johnson to use the left-hand drive. Hollins has shown him how to use his body and the rim to frustrate shot blockers and how to better find the open man when he is double-teamed.

The 6-foot-1-inch Johnson has become one of the league's most productive point guards in just four pro seasons after a rocky start.

In 1987, his selection as the seventh player in the draft by the Cleveland Cavaliers was met with boos and groans of disappointment by fans. Few had heard of Johnson and some skeptics even questioned the sanity of Wayne Embry, the general manager, who drafted him.

Embry was sure he had made the correct choice.

The Cavs had done their homework well. Johnson, who attended the University of California, was the Golden Bears' career leader in scoring (1,665 points), assists (521) and steals (155).

"We watched films and liked what we saw," Embry said. "We got good reports on him from everywhere but it was his play at the Aloha Classic in Hawaii that moved him up as a lottery pick in most everyone's estimation."

Johnson, describing his trip to Hawaii as "one for business," said he went there to show everyone that "I was a true point guard."

"I had to beat the rap of being a shooting guard in a point guard's body," he said.

Embry was more certain he had made the right choice when he and Gary Fitzsimmons, the Cavaliers' player-personnel director, went to the airport to pick up Johnson for his first news conference. Gary Fitzsimmons is Cotton's son.

"The kid had great personality," Embry said. "As he got off the plane, it was like President Reagan had arrived. He was smiling, joking around and shaking every hand in sight."

But the Cavaliers already had a point guard, a good one at that, in Mark Price. Rather than let one of them languish on the bench, four months into Johnson's rookie season, Johnson was the central figure in a five-player trade that brought Larry Nance to Cleveland.

"We didn't think they could survive together," said Embry, who said he remained a fan of Johnson. "Mark needed the playing time and so did Kevin."

Johnson looks back at his rookie season with Cleveland, when he averaged 20 minutes in 52 games, as a learning experience. "There was a night and day difference between Price and myself," he said. "He taught me so much in a short period of time. I told myself that when I came back for my second season, I would implement all the things he taught me. Whether it was practice or a game, he did everything with the same consistency. He took 500 shots in practice every day, maybe more. If he would have given me one inch, I thought I would have been able to challenge him for the job. He never gave me that inch."

Johnson likes playing in the Pacific Division, and with the Suns in particular, where the offense is more suited to his game.

"Cleveland was a half-court team," he said, "geared to go inside and slow it up. Here, we run and push the ball up the court and, play tough defense. Our objective is to run and outhustle the opposition at both ends of the court."

Johnson believes that "it was one of the greatest trades of all time."

"It was meant to benefit both teams and it has," he said.

A lot of good things have happened to Johnson in Phoenix, the latest of which has been his elevation to starter in the All-Star Game.

What a difference a year makes. The Western Conference coaches voted him on to last year's team as a reserve. But he was in awe of being in the company of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Akeem Olajuwon and felt more like a spectator than a participant.

"I was so excited I didn't even care if I played," he said. "It was just a dream come true to have my name announced during the introductions and to sit on the bench and be able to listen to Pat Riley in the huddle asking Magic who he wanted to guard on defense, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan."

Today, he will be playing alongside Magic in an all-Johnson starting backcourt.

[Photograph]
Kevin Johnson driving around John Stockton of the Jazz. (Reuters)

[Illustration]
"Watching a Sun Rise," showing Kevin Johnson's year-by-year statistics.

Quote from that article:


But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."



Tiny Archibald himself says KJ was quicker and a better shooter.

[GP_20]

I'm also waiting to hear how a legend, like Tiny, in his prime, just had 1 non-losing season or only 1 playoff appearance.

Even Iverson and McGrady are laughing at that. I mean, do we all realize how pathetic this is? Tiny did also play with All-Stars in his prime, so he didn't have some of the worst starcasts of all-time, he was given decent teammates. T-Mac, Kobe, AI, did more in 2 years with bad starcasts, than Tiny did in his whole prime.

[Niquesports]

Nique please don't make me counter those arguments again. I have so many times. But you repeat them. Stop acting like Sir Charles.

Here let's do it again.


Top 50/HOF - First of all, KJ still has a chance for HOF, and his career was not over when Top 50 were selected unlike Tiny's.
Was MJ career over how about Shaq ?he has about as much chance of getting into the HOF as Gus Williams who also was better than KJBut more importantly, KJ is one of the most underrated players of all-time. By definition, he will be overlooked. So the fact that he isn't in the HOF yet isn't surprising at all. Same with Top 50.
Who proclaimed this when was this talked about and prove he is only underrated by you just because he wasnt Elite so isnt in the TOP 50 doesnt mean he is underrated if anyone Bob Mcadoo is the most underrated.

All-NBA 1st- KJ peaked around the same time Magic and Jordan did. Neither Tiny, nor any guard in NBA history would've made All-NBA 1st if they peaked when KJ did. Even peaking Stockton was unable to make All-NBA 1st when Magic/MJ were peaking. I can't blame KJ for that.
Im sure if TIny was playing at that time and lead the league in scoring and assist he would have been First Team All NBA GET freakin real
And thats why awards are all subjective to time/competition.


Rings/Team Success- Tiny got team success and a ring, when he was out of his pirme.

But was still a very productive player making the All Star team and making 2nd Al NBA



And there you go, you have no argument left. The end.

Sometimes I think you only read your own post ok awards are subjective then what are opinions? If I wanted to know who was the better player
George Milkin or Neil Johnson what would I base it on awards and selection from his peers or your opinion

[Niquesports]

I'm also waiting to hear how a legend, like Tiny, in his prime, just had 1 non-losing season or only 1 playoff appearance.

Even Iverson and McGrady are laughing at that. I mean, do we all realize how pathetic this is? Tiny did also play with All-Stars in his prime, so he didn't have some of the worst starcasts of all-time, he was given decent teammates. T-Mac, Kobe, AI, did more in 2 years with bad starcasts, than Tiny did in his whole prime.

Well why T-Mac and AI and KJ are laughing in one room Tiny is in another room laughing with an exclusive group of players that were selected into the HOF a room KJ will never be invited into. unless he pays to get in as a fan of the ALL TIME GREATS

[GP_20]

Sometimes I think you only read your own post ok awards are subjective then what are opinions? If I wanted to know who was the better player
George Milkin or Neil Johnson what would I base it on awards and selection from his peers or your opinion

Really, you want to go that route? So you must agree with all of the following

Kobe deserves All-D 1st this year
Larry Hughes was once All-D 1st material
Camby was once DPOY material
Bill Russell >> Wilt (All-Time)
Dominique Wilkins and Bob McAdoo are not Top 50 players
DJ is not a HOF


Now don't tell me you disagree with any of the following above...Those are all what the "peers" voted on, and what the awards are telling us. You agree with all of the above?

[Snoop_Cat]

I'm pretty curious where Reggie Miller ends up on your list with Ray Allen in the 90's. Whenever I read some of these lists, I find that (in my opinion), Reggie is overrated and that his longevity is a good reason why he's placed higher than he should be.

[GP_20]

Im sure if TIny was playing at that time and lead the league in scoring and assist he would have been First Team All NBA GET freakin real

How did I miss this?

Tiny Archibald would lead the league in scoring (over Michael Jordan), and lead the league in assists (over Stockton and Magic), and then make All-NBA 1st over Jordan and Magic at their very best? (these are the years Jordan and Magic were winning MVPs left and right)


Oh my

[Niquesports]

Also, another comparison tool, and to give us an idea of how biased NiqueSports is



However, Tiny Archibald had something else to say about that.





Quote from that article:


But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."



Tiny Archibald himself says KJ was quicker and a better shooter.

Wow that really makes KJ better why dont you post my whole response when I said what does it matter who the quicker or better shooter was wasnt KJ quicker and a better shooter than Magic also ??????????

[Niquesports]

How did I miss this?

Tiny Archibald would lead the league in scoring (over Michael Jordan), and lead the league in assists (over Stockton and Magic), and then make All-NBA 1st over Jordan and Magic at their very best?


Oh my

What part do you find so funny like i said TIny best personal accomplishment was leading the league in scoring and assist if he did it in any era he would have been a first team all NBA. See the part that you should be laughing at is that Tiny has something in common with Jordan,Magic,and Stockton all 4 are TOP 50 KJ isnt so he is in there class KJ isnt


Thanks for making that clear.

[GP_20]

What part do you find so funny like i said TIny best personal accomplishment was leading the league in scoring and assist if he did it in any era he would have been a first team all NBA. See the part that you should be laughing at is that Tiny has something in common with Jordan,Magic,and Stockton all 4 are TOP 50 KJ isnt so he is in there class KJ isnt


Thanks for making that clear.

God you are dumb as dirt.

The point is he isn't leading the league in scoring or passing with Magic, Jordan, and Stockton at their peaks. Thus, he would NOT make All-NBA 1st over Magic or Jordan. He wouldn't make it regardless actually lol.

Was the Tiny Archibald that lead the league in scoring/assists better than 88-91 Jordan or a 88-91 Magic?

[GP_20]

Really, you want to go that route? So you must agree with all of the following

Kobe deserves All-D 1st this year
Larry Hughes was once All-D 1st material
Camby was once DPOY material
Bill Russell >> Wilt (All-Time)
Dominique Wilkins and Bob McAdoo are not Top 50 players
DJ is not a HOF


Now don't tell me you disagree with any of the following above...Those are all what the "peers" voted on, and what the awards are telling us. You agree with all of the above?

Hey NiqueSports, don't tell me you are going to ignore the post that kills your best (and worst) argument. Come on.

If you don't agree with all of the above, please don't throw that Top 50 and HOF BS at me.

[Niquesports]

God you are dumb as dirt.

The point is he isn't leading the league in scoring or passing with Magic, Jordan, and Stockton at their peaks. Thus, he would NOT make All-NBA 1st over Magic or Jordan. He wouldn't make it regardless actually lol.

Was the Tiny Archibald that lead the league in scoring/assists better than 88-91 Jordan or a 88-91 Magic?

I will answer that when you say I am right or wrong that TIny has something in common with Magic and Jordan that KJ doesnt
CAN WE SAY TOP 50