The GOAT List: 100 Greatest Players in Basketball History

[raiderfan19]

A very WTF? to you for No on score and defend. Dirk couldn't defend my dead grandmother if he tried, and Iverson scored more and did so on worse offensive teams.

and did it wayyyy less effeciently while taking wayyyyyyy more shots.

And iverson has always been a terrible defender.

[magnax1]

and did it wayyyy less effeciently while taking wayyyyyyy more shots.

And iverson has always been a terrible defender.

When Iverson finally got capable offensive players around him, he no longer shot 39%, but closer to 45%. He also did way more for his teams, and was way more clutch, though its really hard to compare what a bigman does to what a perimeter player does.
And Dirk has always been just as bad of a defender.

[robertshaw_1]

Dirk 38

[G.O.A.T]

I think Dirk in the 30's is a bit high, he has never played defense, and doesn't like to go to the low post very much even though nobody on his team ever gets inside, and hes one of the few even capable of it. Nobody doubts how much his offense means to his team, as hes both a very good passer, and a great scorer, but his defense and inability to do much, even with good to great teams, makes me think of him in the 50's and 60's range. Probably the only MVP I can think of that I'd put that low on the list.

I understand your contention, but Dirk does not need to be a great defender and he is better than you (and most) give him credit for. I had him below Ewing and Drexler before this year, 4 all-NBA 1st teams is great.

GOAT, you need to update his career averages.

I think his ranking is pretty spot on. He should be in the Top 50. He is not Top 30. But any where from 30-50 is about right.

To me it is amazing how far he has come in his career. At the end of the 99 season, no one believed he would accomplish what he has accomplished in his career.

Great post and thanks for catching my error, I'll fix that.

I was waiting for you to pick dirk to completely post my thoughts on him so ill do it now(and its a crime if you have iverson higher than him. which im assuming you do.)

To begin with dirk lets start with the obvious. Hes an absolutely dominant scorer. Hes a volume scorer(not shooter) who does so without turning the ball over and maintains high percentages. He is the best high post player in the nba(and has been for three years). Hes been criticized for not "making teammates better" which is quite frankly a moronic criticism. To begin with, no one can "make teammates better" you can simply put them in easier positions to succeed which dirk does as well as anyone in the nba. He sets the most effective picks of any pf in the nba. Honestly its not because he sets ridiculously hard picks(ala mahorn) its simply the fact that his presence and unlimited range require his defender to hug him or forces a switch. The mavs rode that ability to several amazing offensive seasons despite the talent around him not being nearly what its made out to be(the big 3 were great till 03. Then finley declined and nash left after 04 and since then hes had solid but not great talent around him.)

The thing about dirk that everyone complains about is the theory that you can guard him with a small(its not true you need a hyper athletic 3 and a shot blocker at the rim) The issue this creates is that it forces the other team to either play with 2 3s on the floor meaning they are without a 4 or a 5 or guard Josh howard with a 4. This is a huge reason why howard has become the player he has. The other thing is when the other team actually chooses to go the two 3s route, it gives the mavs a huge rebounding advantage because dirk can rebound like a big while forcing the other team to only have one big on the floor. This is why the mavs have consistently been a very good rebounding team throughout dirks career without other great rebounders(damp is a very good rebounder but he doesnt play much).

Dirks defensive limitations are talked about all the time and quite frankly they are overblown. Dirk is a decent(not great and not terrible) defender. Hes not a huge shot blocker which does hurt him in conversations with some of the other elite pfs(duncan, garnett for example) but he rarely gets torched like alot of people act like he does. There are a ton of people on this list and several who will be higher who were bigger defensive liabilities than dirk(ai, barkley just to name a couple).

Dirk is an amazing player and i am happy he made the top 40 but there are gonna be at least 4 people he should be higher than above him.

Another really good post, but I don't agree with AI and Barkley being defensive liabilities. They were defensive play makers more so than Dirk was even though I agree with the sentiment that Dirk's "bad" defense is overblown. Guy pulls down mega rebounds when it counts, that's a big part of getting defensive stops.

i like Dirk and his style of play. unic and his energy and will is great.

@GOAT:
i also think 38 is a little bit high.
how much did his MVP count because with Nash you had your issues with MVPs and not playing any D or am i wrong?

I evaluate Nash as if he didn't win those two MVP's unfair yes, but the only way I can do it without ruining the list for me. Dirk is the 2nd lowest ranked MVP after Nash only ahead of LeBron (matter of time) so we're not too far off on this.

@ Robert Shaw 1

Please stay out of the thread, no one agrees with you and it doesn't add to the thread. All your posts within the thread from here forward will be reported.

[G.O.A.T]

This is easily the best thing I've ever read on ISH and it feels like robbery that I get to read all of this for free, superbly written, researched and thought out analysis and well presented. Congratulations on the list so far, I'll be checking in regularly to read the updates.

How bout a little Author's Bio? You seem to have been watching hoops for a long while, just wondering how long, what your team is, etc.

1,000 Thank Yous for your wonderful complement, I am so happy you're enjoying it.

As for an author bio; I'll mix something like that in sometime. For now I've been watching hoops since I can remember, my Dad was a college basketball coach in 1970's and I played ball in College and now work as a manager and youth director at a field house near my home. I am a Pistons fan and always will be. Season ticket holder (me or my father) since 1988 the year before the Palace opened.

Thanks Again!

[G.O.A.T]

[I][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"] With my last selection at #38 Dirk Nowitzki begins a run of six straight one time league MVP

[L.Kizzle]

Bob McAdoo at 37 is kind of high, IMO. I would have him right beofre that group of GP/Kidd/Pat/lyde and Dirk.

[raiderfan19]

Bob McAdoo at 37 is kind of high, IMO. I would have him right beofre that group of GP/Kidd/Pat/lyde and Dirk.

i would too but those 34/15 seasons and being first team all nba in kaj's prime are impressive.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Lack of longevity really hurts McAdoo.

[G.O.A.T]

Lack of longevity really hurts McAdoo.

Yes and No. It's not as much longevity as it is stability that his career lacks. As the article says, Mac was still a very good scorer through the late 70's and early 80's he just couldn't find a team that wanted him. He was scoring 24 ppg with the Knicks but he, and Haywood couldn't coexist and Pearl was past his prime, they underachieved and out with McAdoo. Boston never wanted him and Detroit and New Jersey thought he was washed up because of the injury in 1980. In LA he was scoring 21 pts per 36 pretty impressive for a bench guy in his 30's.

[robertshaw_1]

Goat, one question...
is oscar from brazil in the list?

[G.O.A.T]

Goat, one question...
is oscar from brazil in the list?

Considering he never played American professional Basketball and that's the criteria, I'd say it's pretty self explanitory.

Stay out of this thread, you've been asked several times to read the OP and understand the critera and the way the list works and still have not, your contributions are not wanted or welcomed here.

[robertshaw_1]

Considering he never played American professional Basketball and that's the criteria, I'd say it's pretty self explanitory.

Stay out of this thread, you've been asked several times to read the OP and understand the critera and the way the list works and still have not, your contributions are not wanted or welcomed here.

sory, dont get angry....is not so important...

[G.O.A.T]

[I][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Anyone who

[D-Rose]

much love for AI