Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

[Jacks3]

Kobe without Shaq is much better individually. Without Shaq he has 3-4 more scoring titles. Probably 3-4 more 30+/5+/5+ seasons on excellent efficiency( like he did in 05-07). Maybe not 4 rings, but if the Lakers are building around him for a decade+, I think he has 1-2 rings-probably more All-NBA First teams, too.

[guy]

Kobe without Shaq is much better individually. Without Shaq he has 3-4 more scoring titles. Probably 3-4 more 30+/5+/5+ seasons on excellent efficiency( like he did in 05-07). Maybe not 4 rings, but if the Lakers are building around him for a decade+, I think he has 1-2 rings-probably more All-NBA First teams, too.

IMO 2 more scoring titles at the most, being 01 and 03. There's no reason to think he would've scored more then 6.2 more ppg in 02, which is what it would've taken to beat AI, especially when he was already on a team that outside of himself and Shaq wasn't much, and when Shaq already missed like 15 games that year. There's no reason to think Kobe would've scored more then 4.0 more ppg in 04, which is what it would've taken to beat T-Mac that year, especially when Shaq missed 15 games and was already taken a less aggressive approach that year offensively, averaging 4 less FGA and only scoring 21.5 ppg.

As far as 30+/5+/5+ seasons go, I don't think he has anymore. In 03 he already did it. In 01, he only averaged 5.0 apg anyway, so that number would likely go down. In 02, he would've had to have scored 4.8 more ppg, and 6 more ppg in 04. 02 is possible, but doubtful IMO for the same reason why he wouldn't have won a scoring title, plus his apg might've gone below 5.0. He would've obviously came close, but I don't think it happens anymore

He might've gotten on 1-2 more all-nba first teams in 2000 and 2001, but even thats far fetched since he missed a good amount of games in each of those seasons.

And like I said before, from 97-00 he just clearly wasn't that good.

[dynasty1978]

IMO 2 more scoring titles at the most, being 01 and 03. There's no reason to think he would've scored more then 6.2 more ppg in 02

IMO, Kobe could certainly match AI's output and with greater efficiency (39.8% isn't anything to write home about)

There's no reason to think Kobe would've scored more then 4.0 more ppg in 04

T-mac's 28 ppg on 41.7% shooting isn't anything monumental. To suggest that Kobe couldn't touch that is laughable.

Again, not that stats mean much in the big picture, but Kobe could easily have over 5 scoring titles as a solo artist...

[guy]

IMO, Kobe could certainly match AI's output and with greater efficiency (39.8% isn't anything to write home about)



T-mac's 28 ppg on 41.7% shooting isn't anything monumental. To suggest that Kobe couldn't touch that is laughable.

Again, not that stats mean much in the big picture, but Kobe could easily have over 5 scoring titles as a solo artist...

This doesn't have much to do with what those players did, but I'm looking more at what playing with Shaq cost Kobe. To suggest that Kobe would've scored close to 7 more ppg in 02 without Shaq, when the rest of his team was already not that great and Shaq missed 15 games anyway, is a bit far-fetched. To suggest that Kobe would've scored over 4 more ppg in 04 without Shaq, when Shaq was only scoring 21 ppg and missed 15 games that year anyway, is a bit far-fetched as well. Also, in 04 Kobe was already dealing with injuries and off the court distractions, which also probably had an impact on his numbers.

[guy]

IMO, Kobe could certainly match AI's output and with greater efficiency (39.8% isn't anything to write home about)



T-mac's 28 ppg on 41.7% shooting isn't anything monumental. To suggest that Kobe couldn't touch that is laughable.

Again, not that stats mean much in the big picture, but Kobe could easily have over 5 scoring titles as a solo artist...

I just did a little bit more research on this.

Kobe's ppg in games without Shaq from 01-04:

2001 - 31.9 ppg (8 games)
2002 - 28.9 ppg (15 games)
2003 - 32.3 ppg (15 games)
2004 - 24.8 ppg (8 games - Shaq missed 15, but 7 of those Kobe missed as well)

According to that, what I said is right. If he averaged that for an 82 game season, he would've had 2 more scoring titles both in the years I mentioned, 2001 and 2003. Now obviously 8-15 games is a small sample size, but that means not only could the ppg have been higher with a larger sample size, it could've also been lower.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe is not having the same efficiency in '00-'04 as he did from '06-'08 because a lot of that is due to the new perimeter friendly rules. Kobe was a 54-55% TS player before the rule changes, and that jumped to 56-57+% afterwards. Not a coincidence, as most star perimeter players saw similar gains.

2001 - 31.9 ppg (8 games)
2002 - 28.9 ppg (15 games)
2003 - 32.3 ppg (15 games)
2004 - 24.8 ppg (8 games - Shaq missed 15, but 7 of those Kobe missed as well)

Check his efficiency during those stretches. I know for a fact that during his 2003 games w/o Shaq where he averaged 32.3 ppg, he also averaged 27 FGA and 42.5% shooting iirc (it was no more than 43%).

[guy]

Check his efficiency during those stretches. I know for a fact that during his 2003 games w/o Shaq where he averaged 32.3 ppg, he also averaged 27 FGA and 42.5% shooting iirc (it was no more than 43%).

I didn't bother looking at that since it was irrelevant to my point. All I was looking for was PPG without Shaq.

[guy]

Saw a few comments in some other threads again implying that Shaq held Kobe down alot so I felt like bumping this

[IGOTGAME]

There's certain things you learn and develop quicker when you are the #1 guy. In Kobe's case it would be his intelligence, passing (or rather willingness to do it), leadership, creativity (would definitly have to create more for others), skill, all of which improved rapidly when he was given the team. If he had this privilege since 2001ish...one can only wonder how many 33+ ppg seasons we could have seen. He also would have had the chance to wait and have a contending team built around him so years like 2006 and 2007 (ages at which Jordan won rings...and prime ages for most players) wouldn't be completely wasted.

Ideal situation for maximizing your legacy is getting a chance to put up mind blowing stats early on in your career as you wait for your team to improve. If you lose in the playoffs, it's because of the cast so you're excused. Then as you get around 26-27, management should have put nice pieces around you (unless they fck up) and you are on a contender for your prime and late-prime years (as #1 option, which is key). Helps even more if the competition at the top of the league wanes as your team gets better. This gives you all those early individual accomplishments and then later on the team ones as well.

great post. Kobe didnt get the teams until after his physical prime.

[guy]

great post. Kobe didnt get the teams until after his physical prime.

Right, he's only had great help around him 13 out of 16 seasons. How unfortunate for him.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe without playing with Shaq may ahve had a few extra ppg, but you wouldn't have seen him shooting around 47% like he was during the 3peat and you wouldn't have seen him playing deep into the playoffs and winning championships. In reality his legacy would be worse without the 3 extra rings. Kobe would never trade those 3 rings for 3 extra ppg for is career.

Kobe could have replaced Snaq with a Euro like Big Z and still won multiple championships from 00 ' - 02'...

saying Kobe would not have won without Snaq is silly..and shows your bias once again..

infact...replace Snaq's ego with a soft Euro and Kobe wins more....not having to deal with snaq's personality issues.

shoot..in 2003 alone Kobe could have easily averaged over 35 PPG and won a Title if not for Snaq's outta shape behind holding him back.


Hayyyter

[eliteballer]

To suggest that Kobe would've scored close to 7 more ppg in 02 without Shaq, when the rest of his team was already not that great and Shaq missed 15 games anyway, is a bit far-fetched.

It's not. He pulled back because he got married before that season and wasnt as purely basketball driven as before. Coincidence one of the games Shaq missed that year he scored 56 in 3 quarters? No.

The guy averaged 29/6/5 at 22 years old AFTER pulling back when he reconciled with Shaq in 01.

Hell Doug Collins said he'd lead the league in scoring if he was on his own team during the 2000 playoffs when he was 21.

[guy]

It's not. He pulled back because he got married before that season and wasnt as purely basketball driven as before. Coincidence one of the games Shaq missed that year he scored 56 in 3 quarters? No.

The guy averaged 29/6/5 at 22 years old AFTER pulling back when he reconciled with Shaq in 01.

Hell Doug Collins said he'd lead the league in scoring if he was on his own team during the 2000 playoffs when he was 21.

Like I said later in this topic, he averaged 29 ppg in the 15 games in 2002 when Shaq wasn't playing.

What does him getting married have anything to do with Shaq?

[eliteballer]

When he got married he was content to let Shaq control the team. The point was repeatedly made in the media. In 2001 he was averaging 30 ppg before he got injured and decided to cut back. Yet you act as if he magically regressed in 2002.

[eliteballer]

What were his numbers in 03 without Shaq? Like 33/8/7, and once he adjusted his shot after adding all that muscle in the offseason his efficiency was off the chart too during the 40 point month