Jason Kidd or Scottie Pippen who was better

[D.J.]

While I somewhat agree, I'd say it's Kidd's passing that affected games. Why knock Pippen for being a better scorer? How many 10 assist games is a small forward 'really' going to get anyway? You can't give out a positionally bias stat like that when comparing a 1 and a 3.

I'm not knocking him at all. Pippen was a solid floor leader as well. He was the original point forward. As far as Kidd, there was nothing Pippen did that he couldn't do. Kidd had some good shooting days, was a great passer, and rebounded better than some big men.

[Alhazred]

Of course mj was good, but in 98, that does not change that Pippen was their first defencive option.

Oh I'm not denying Pippen was a better defender in 98(Although Jordan was still pretty good himself), I'm just saying that Jordan has been assigned to guard players from various positions as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not knocking him at all. Pippen was a solid floor leader as well. He was the original point forward. As far as Kidd, there was nothing Pippen did that he couldn't do. Kidd had some good shooting days, was a great passer, and rebounded better than some big men.

Kidd is a career 40% shooter. Pippen was a much better shooter (47%) and scorer than Kidd. Kidd is a better passer but Pippen was good. Kidd is a good defender but Pippen was better. Pippen is in the GOAT perimeter defender conversation. Kidd is not. Other than passing Pippen> or = Kidd everywhere.

Pippen also was a great rebounder for his size and position too. He led his team in rebounding three times in the playoffs despite playing with Horace Grant during those years.

You said Kidd had more impact when he wasn't scoring. That is debatable. Kidd had more impact passing but Pippen had more impact on defense. Your stat is misleading because Pippen was a much better scorer. He didn't have as many games scoring in the single digits as Kidd did. Plus if Pippen didn't score over 10 the only way he would need 10+ assists to do it. That is very difficult to do in the triangle offense. No one has ever averaged more than 7 assists in the triangle (Pippen has the record).

[indiefan23]

I'm not knocking him at all. Pippen was a solid floor leader as well. He was the original point forward. As far as Kidd, there was nothing Pippen did that he couldn't do. Kidd had some good shooting days, was a great passer, and rebounded better than some big men.

Hmm... Jason Kidd could not guard a center or power forward. That's the point. It's passing vs defence.

[juju151111]

Umm, am I missing something? What 8 players did you show me?

Anyway, I'm not just looking at from 93 to 94. I'm looking at his best years, which were 92-97. In 94 and 95, he averaged around 22 ppg. In the 4 other years, where he played with Jordan, he had two seasons averaging around 20-21 ppg. Thats not much of a difference at all. You looked at the difference from 93 to 94. How about we look at 92 to 93? What changed roster-wise, which resulted in Pippen dropping 2.4 ppg? Almost nothing. The team was almost exactly the same. What does that mean? That individual scoring fluctuates for sometimes no reason or for a variety of reasons (Pippen maybe worn out from the Dream Team, pace like you have mentioned, etc). I've said it before and I'll say it again, one player, even one as dominant as Jordan, impact another great player's stats that much.



No they wouldn't. I'm just pointing out that the ridiculous notion that you and others are pushing that Jordan was such a significant detriment to his teammates stats, Pippen specifically, is false.



Pippen was a top 5 player in certain years.

I really don't see how Pippen deserved FMVP in 97 like some here have said. Was he the best defender in the series? Yes. But as great of a defender as he was, was it that much greater then the next guy, Dennis Rodman? Who limited the Jazz best player, Malone, down to 24 ppg on 44% (bad FG% for a PF and terrible for him considering he was at 55% during the year)? So did he really deserve it over Jordan who averaged 32/7/6 on 46%, hit two game winners, the series winning assist, came up huge in game 5 despite the flu (and this was a very pivotal game since the Bulls were looking at a 3-2 deficit if they lost), and played great defense himself (primarily defended the Jazz third best scorer Jeff Hornacek who only scored 12 ppg on 38%)? I think not.

As far as 98 goes, you can say Pippen had a great case through the first 4 games. But it didn't end in 4. Jordan was already having a good series, and in game 6, he was amazing. I know alot of people overhype how much Jordan had to "carry" the Bulls in some instances, but in game 6 he did just that. There's no way someone can say the guy didn't, especially with Pippen dealing with injuries. Its not really Pippen's fault, he was great in the Finals, he just wasn't as great as Jordan in any Finals.

I don't really think Pippen could've led a team to a championship as the main man, unless we're talking about a situation like the 04 Pistons. He just wasn't built like a Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, etc. The role of second fiddle was really perfect for the guy, but that doesn't mean he wasn't great.

Pippen's definitely better then Gasol, but Gasol definitely isn't as far off as some suggest.



I think you can really pick any year from 94-96 as Pippen's best. I'd personally pick 94 just cause I just felt he was a little bit more dominant, but its definitely not by far his best season. As far as his MVP votes go, well we all know MVPs are usually determined by a combination of wins and stats. In 95, every player that was ahead of Pippen led there teams to 55+ wins except for Hakeem, who led his team to the same amount as Pippen, and Pippen didn't separate himself statistically from any of them. Either way, Jordan barely even played that season. In 97, I'm not going to try to explain that. No way he should've been 11th behind the likes of Anthony Mason. But I'm not going to give the Jordan excuse and say they picked Anthony Mason over Scottie Pippen cause Pippen was playing with Jordan. It could've just been a bonehead move just like many MVP voting ranks in the past have been (EX: PJ Brown being picked ahead of Kobe Bryant in 05.) 98 doesn't need an explanation. So at the most we're talking one season where Pippen's MVP recognition was affected by Jordan's presence?

I'm not saying Jordan didn't have any effect on Pippen's recognition. He clearly did, or Pippen wouldn't have been underrated by many back then. But I really think its overblown, and Pippen probably gets more recognition with the way his career did pan out then if he was just another HOFer with his own team that never won a championship i.e. Drexler, Ewing, Nique (which is what most likely would've happened with Jordan and Hakeem around.)



Yes, Pippen > Kemp. But the upgrade isn't that large. You can't really improve much from 57, 64, and 61 wins. What do you think? They would win 75 games with Pippen instead? This what if gets a little confusing, because more then likely the 96-98 Bulls are very different since they might've never gotten Rodman if they get Kemp, and the Sonics might look a little different as well. But if we say things stay exactly the same, just Kemp and Pippen switched (with maybe Rodman coming off the bench and Kukoc starting), I still say the 96 Bulls win. The mind-set of the Bulls would be different (more focused, greater sense of urgency), the Sonics D would probably be greater, Bulls D probably weaker, but the Bulls would absolutely kill them even MORE on the boards, which is the biggest reason they won in the first place. And with this move we also get rid of the Shawn Kemp problem who absolutely killed us in that series to the point that he was seriously considered the FMVP even though they lost. The Sonics are way more perimeter oriented in this situation primarily revolving their offense around Pippen and Payton, while the Bulls have an inside-outside combo in Kemp and Jordan, which might lessen the impact of the defensive changes (nobody offensively killing the Bulls inside, and the Bulls have a greater offense inside vs. a weaker Sonics frontline). I don't know. It would actually be an interesting series to watch.

[juju151111]

Oh I'm not denying Pippen was a better defender in 98(Although Jordan was still pretty good himself), I'm just saying that Jordan has been assigned to guard players from various positions as well.

I agree, people always cliam Pippen could guard all postions, but Phil put
Mj on PF/Centers too. He just didn't do it has much because of his offensive role. Go look at game 1-5 91 finals of MJ guarding the PG,SG, and C.