Peak John Stockton vs Peak Steve Nash

[wally_world]

Nash is amazing, and im a huge fan. If im counting for a PG to lead a team of role-players, i'll take Nash. He makes everyone better. If it's a contending team with a superstar, i'll take Stock.

Basically, Nash wins you games. Stock wins you championships (although he has none).

[Cyclone112]

Contradict yourself much ?

Saying Nash created everything for them doesn't mean they still didn't do a great job themselves. Maybe 'everything' is the wrong word choice but if you watch the Suns then or even now you will realize that very few Suns players can/could create for themselves. Marion is definitely one of the guys who relied heavily on Nash to get him easy buckets and open looks otherwise he would generally struggle.

I'm not dissing the team and saying they were crap or anything. I'm just saying they definitely benefited stats wise from Nash and thus making them look better than what most people would consider them to be.

[steve]

That goes both ways you know. Or maybe you think its a coincidence that Nashs assists, shooting percentage, effective field goal percentage, and points per attempt all went up dramatically once he got guys like Stoudemire and Marion to pass to, and a higher pace team to play on.

Even though all of those stats for Nash has stayed primarily the same when both Stoudemire and Marion have been out of the line-up. Whereas neither of them have as effective playing without Nash.

[purple32gold]

weren't they winnin somethin lik 25 or so games before nash came and cleaned em up?that being said this is obviously john stockton and no one should say anything but. the only pg i would ever personally say played at or higher than magics level during the 80's

[Cyclone112]

That goes both ways you know. Or maybe you think its a coincidence that Nashs assists, shooting percentage, effective field goal percentage, and points per attempt all went up dramatically once he got guys like Stoudemire and Marion to pass to, and a higher pace team to play on.

Higher paced team yes, those specific players definitely not. That's just reaching.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Stockton was basically like Nash with defense. I'll take Stock.

Ummm, beyond the color of their skin ... they play NOTHING alike.

[GiveItToBurrito]

I never understood why Nash got all the credit for that, Marion was dropping 22/12 that year, Diaw was playing center will enough to earn the MIP award, and Raja Bell was playing great D while averaging 15ppg.

Marion was an elite player back then and criminally underrated, but no one else on that team was really all that special. Diaw was great, no doubt about it, but he wasn't really that good at scoring or rebounding, especially compared to Amare.

[EricForman]

I never understood why Nash got all the credit for that, Marion was dropping 22/12 that year, Diaw was playing center will enough to earn the MIP award, and Raja Bell was playing great D while averaging 15ppg.

Marion averaged those numbers every year. Yes he can put up numbers but does Marion win? It's been proven that Nash+the system is what makes the Suns win. Nash has now led Suns to pretty strong seasons without Amare and without Marion. The entire run and gun Suns team have changed from 05 except for Nash. So the whole ISH excuse that it's "not really Nash but his teammates" doesn't really work anymore. Marion never had the game or attitude to be aything more than a second fiddle, at best.


BTW, can't your argument be made for EVERY great player? Kobes playing great but I don't see why he gets so much credit when Pau is double double, Bynum is manning the middle and Odom is so versatile. I don't see why Bird gets so much credit when McHale is automatic two points and DJ plays such strong D. I don't see why Lebron gets so much credit when he has like three teammates that can hit 40% of threes and two legit centers.


Stop underrating Nash. He's a top fifty player all time. His MVPs aren't flukes. It's been proven.

[G.O.A.T]

His MVPs aren't flukes. It's been proven.

I don't disagree with anything else you said except this. If anything it's been proven he didn't deserve those MVP's. He still has no rings and no finals appearances. He is one of two MVP's ever not to at least make it to the finals as his teams best player.

[chocolatethunder]

Ummm, beyond the color of their skin ... they play NOTHING alike.

+1

[Samurai Swoosh]

I don't disagree with anything else you said except this. If anything it's been proven he didn't deserve those MVP's. He still has no rings and no finals appearances. He is one of two MVP's ever not to at least make it to the finals as his teams best player.

That isn't directly contributed to him is it? It's a combonation of unfortunate things. Style of play doesn't translate well to Playoff basketball, coaching changes, injuries, etc

In 2006 they didn't have Amare ... he made Boris Diaw look like an All Star for christ sakes

[G.O.A.T]

Ummm, beyond the color of their skin ... they play NOTHING alike.

There are a lot of similarities in how they play actually...they both are excellent shooters who still think pass first, they are high volume assist guys, both are great in the pick and roll, both like to push the tempo, both played at prime level into their thirties etc etc etc.

That isn't directly contributed to him is it? It's a combonation of unfortunate things. Style of play doesn't translate well to Playoff basketball, coaching changes, injuries, etc

In 2006 they didn't have Amare ... he made Boris Diaw look like an All Star for christ sakes

So his team mates and the style of play are responsible for his lack of success in the postseason, but he is responsible for Diaw having a career year, not the other team mates and the style?

In my opinion if the team doesn't win against another team that is as good or slightly better or worse, either the coach or the superstar are most responsible. Usually the star player.

[Kblaze8855]

He doesn't get all the credit but the reason Marion and the others had such great success is because Nash created everything for them. Marion can't create his own shot to save his life.

Marion put up 21/10, 19/10, and 19/9 before Nash got there. He played with Marbury and Kidd yes...but in the time after marbury left and before Nash got there he put up...

20/10
18/11
22/13
17/12

In 4 months.

Who was creating his shots then? barbosa? Joe Johnson?

Did Nash decide to stop making him better the last couple years he was on the Suns?

Shawn Marion was an all star 2 years before he played with Nash. Hard to say Nash made him considering that.

Diaw got the MIP because he was now starting for the first time getting way more minutes and thus way more stats.

He got the MIP because he was playing much better. Which is usually the reason guys get more minutes. Suns system suited him. Nash missed back to back games in which Diaw had bad to back triple doubles with 16 assists one game and 12 the next.

Stoudemire was out and the Suns still got 54 wins all the while Nash was dropping 19/11 on 51/43/92 percentages.

By eff. Shawn Marion was the 3rd most productive player in the NBA behind KG and Lebron that year. One month he put up 24 points...14 rebounds...3 steals...2blocks...shot 54%...42% from 3...and 91% from the line. To get them to the WCF? Vs the Clippers he had games with 32/19 4 steals and a block, 30/9, 34/9 with 6 steals, and 36 and 20. He had off games as well(14/10 13/6) but really he beasted.

Nash sure had something to do with it...but Marion was one of the best defenders, rebounders, and overall players period and Nash did not make him that.

Cant give anyone that much credit for someone elses success. Especially when they are all stars before they play with eachother.

[BigTicket]

Marion averaged those numbers every year. Yes he can put up numbers but does Marion win? It's been proven that Nash+the system is what makes the Suns win. Nash has now led Suns to pretty strong seasons without Amare and without Marion. The entire run and gun Suns team have changed from 05 except for Nash. So the whole ISH excuse that it's not really Nash but his teammates is really getting old. Marion never had the game or attitude to be aything more than a second fiddle, AT BEST.

BTW, can't your argument be made for EVERY great player? Kobes playing great but I don't see why he gets so much credit when Pau is double double, Bynum is manning the middle and Odom is so versatile. I don't see why Bird gets so much credit when McHale is automatic two points and DJ plays such strong D. I don't see why Lebron gets so much credit when he has like three teammates that can hit 40% of threes and two legit centers.


Stop underrating Nash. He's a top fifty player all time. His MVPs aren't flukes. It's been proven.

The difference is Nash was the first player ever to get credit not just for what he was doing, but for all his teammates did as well.

Noone said Worthy only got his points because of Magic, or McHale wouldn't have any post moves if not for Bird, or Malone couldn't score without Stockton. People did say all the improvement on the Suns was because of Nash though, that Marion couldn't do anything without him etc.

Not saying Nash isn't a great player, or that he isn't top 50 alltime, but it just annoys me how people talk about that 54 win season, as if we're supposed to be awed that an all-nba pg + an all-nba PF + solid roleplayers + great coach = 54 wins. I never understood why that was supposed to be surprising ?

[DC Zephyrs]

If we're just going by peak play, you could definately make a case for Nash. He's just as good a passer, and he is one of the best shooters of all time. He's arguably a better offensive player than Stockton, although he's obviously not as good a defender. I'll go with Stock, but it's close.