Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

[RedBlackAttack]

The question is how good would they be without Lebron. In other words, roughly how many wins is Lebron worth?

Individual talent matters, although chemistry and construction can offset a lack of some of it. Did you watch the ECF last year?

If the question is how many games they win without LeBron, the answer is probably around 30. However, that is a horrible gauge (imo) when evaluating how well a team is constructed, especially when talking about a guy that dominates in as many areas as LeBron.

When you have a player and personality as big as LeBron, your needs completely change in a pretty unique way. You have to evaluate the Cavs in how well they have built around LeBron, not how good they would be without him, because their strategy on the FA market would completely change without James.

The ECF last year was more about major matchup problems than it was about individual talent. Styles make fights and the Magic had the perfect combination to beat the Cavs... Not to mention, they were a pretty well constructed team that had a ton of chemistry, as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

I see what you are saying. People said the same thing about the 01' Sixers and that argument has some validity. The thing is it is much easier to assess how the team would do without Lebron than it is to assess how much of the team's success is due to Lebron and how much of it is due to chemistry and construction. I think it is clear his team lacks talent (unlike the other top teams...) and people don't want to credit Lebron with a top-tier great level impact so they are citing construction. That team still lacks a legit "#2" guy. It has no great rebounder. It has significant weakness.

In the ECF they faced a far more talented team. It wasn't just match ups. Williams would be the #4 guy on the Magic in the ECF and if he was on the Magic right now he would likely be on the bench backing up Nelson.

[RedBlackAttack]

In the ECF they faced a far more talented team. It wasn't just match ups. Williams would be the #4 guy on the Magic in the ECF and if he was on the Magic right now he would likely be on the bench backing up Nelson.

Maybe... But at the same time, is there a better PG to match with LeBron than Mo Williams? He is literally the perfect guy... He is a great, great spot-up shooter... He doesn't need to dominate the ball to have a major impact... He is a low-key personality that doesn't even seem interested in the spotlight. On top of it all, he has really worked on his defense and has done a good job on that end of the floor (the biggest knock on him prior to Cleveland).

I can't think of one PG I would rather have next to LeBron. Maybe Nelson would start over Williams in Orlando, but if Nelson were in Cleveland, he would be the one riding the pine.

[NBASTATMAN]

The Cavs are now a team that knows how to win.. They have some good experience, so my belief is that they could win a fair amount of games without Lebron.. Obviously they aren't near the Celtics or Lakers without their best players though.. The Cavs without Lebron and all their other players healthy may be able to win 33-40 games... They are a good defensive team and could hang in their... For a short period of time they could do avg without Lebron but a long season would show their weaknesses...

[Indian guy]

but I'm not sure there is a better cast out there for working with LeBron's skillset.

I'm having a difficult time understanding what exactly is so unique about LeBron's cast that it makes 'em such a "perfect fit" for him. They're built like any other team. A decent low post player in Shaq, a garbage man at PF in Hickson, a perimeter finisher at SG in Parker and your typical SG-in-a-PG's-body in Mo Williams. Majority of the teams in the league resemble that model. There's no "special" way to build around LeBron. What quality player has the Cleveland front office ignored since acquiring him because he wouldn't necessarily fit around LeBron? I can't think of any. All they have done is get the best available players at the position they needed help at. That's all. Heck, the belief used to be that LeBron likes driving and playing a lot of screen n roll, so he would need big men who could shoot and stay out of the paint. But look at Cleveland this season - they start 2 non-shooters up front in Shaq and Hickson. LeBron's still having the best shooting season of his career! Mo in Milwaukee was known for being a ball hog/chucker, but he's been a perfect fit in Cleveland playing alongside another ball dominant player. What makes players like West and Varejao so "perfect" for LeBron? Every team has tweeners and guys who do the dirty work.

Bottom line is that LeBron is so multi-skilled and so good that it becomes easy to get the most out of talent-limited players on his team, because they aren't asked to do much(and they can't either). Everybody talks about how LeBron has so many shooters around him now. But Cleveland made the NBA Finals in 06-07 with a starting backcourt of Snow and Hughes. You can't get more jump shot challenged than that. Yet even then I recall people saying how LeBron's cast may have lacked in big names, but they were a "good fit" around him. Something tells me he go could to ANY team in the league today and their roster would become a "good fit" around him. That's what great players do. The maximize the talent around them.

[RJChPD]

Indian guy---Very good post

[RedBlackAttack]

Indian,
So you agree with the idea that the value of LeBron's teammates should be evaluated on how well they would do without LeBron? I guess I just don't understand what logical sense that argument makes.

And, I would say that Mo is a pretty unique guy to have at the 1 spot. There aren't too many points that play as much off of the ball as Mo. There aren't too many points that are as good of spot-up shooters as Mo. I don't care what his reputation was in Milwaukee. I know what the Cavs' offense looked like with Eric Snow, Daniel Gibson, Larry Hughes, etc. playing the PG spot and it was ugly.

The team did overachieve in 2006 and 2007, but that was mostly due to great team defense, not what was going on at the other end of the court. Hell... Most of the time, they had to win in spite of their offensive woes. It isn't as though LeBron was able to make those teams offensive juggernauts. He would have his occasional explosion and the rest of the guys did just enough not to lose on most nights. They were pretty horrific to watch.

I realize how great LeBron is. I know that he would make any team an instant contender. The idea that this Cavs team hasn't been well put together around him, though, is my only gripe.

Mo is a pretty unique PG. AV is certainly a unique four man off of the bench and his knack for being in the right place at the right time compliments LeBron's ability to take multiple defenders with him on his drives to the basket.

I'm not saying that the Cavs haven't gone after other 'bigger' names in the FA market (they have). I'm not saying that LeBron being on the floor isn't absolutely key (it is).

I'm just saying that the Cavs' FO have come a long way since the days of LH, Marshall, Jones, Snow, etc. and that they have built a nice team around LeBron that compliments his game.

Yes... When he drives to the basket and a defense converges, it is good to have shooters on the outside to knock down the open shot. We didn't have that in '07 and, while it was a great run to the finals, I never felt that the team ever had much of a chance to bring home a ring the way that it was constructed. This team actually has a shot. It is in large part due to LeBron getting better and better, but are we going to sit here and deny that the team has improved significantly around him?

[ILLsmak]

Even without Bron, they still have one of the best (I think the best) big man rotation in the league as well as perimeter defenders and shooters. I think they'd win 40 games. Mo Williams is kind of a stud... JJ can play off Shaq the same way he plays off LeBron and they've got all kinds of talent for spacing the floor. I bet Shaq could put up similar numbers to what he did last year...

They'd be kind of like last season's Suns w/ Shaq after Amare got injured except with players that are more able to get Shaq involved (And be involved.)

That team was in the west and still almost made the playoffs. If you look at the Sun's talent (Without Amare) they only have Steve Nash... and he wasn't doing anything more last year than Mo is this year...

Plus Cle plays D.

-Smak

[dallaslonghorn]

He's right. The part about them still being human beings ...

I think I would pay money to watch Ron Artest do stand-up comedy.

[lpublic_enemyl]

what is this all supposed to prove...?

if lebron bolts they are not even going to try and put a solid team out there? Replace lebron with danny granger and the team is still fighting for the 3 or 4 seed in the east.

lebron is playing some of the best basketball i have ever seen, but some of you guys are going overboard. its almost as bad as when espn creates random stat scenarios that lebron tops for the sole purpose of worshipping.

no ****ing way man lebron is soo much to this team, does everything, steals, blocks, drives, can knock down the threes etc with danny granger they are around miami and the raptors if that

[artest 93]

I can't think of one PG I would rather have next to LeBron. Maybe Nelson would start over Williams in Orlando, but if Nelson were in Cleveland, he would be the one riding the pine.

I think Chauncey Billups would be an obvious choice. He's clutch, his IQ is very high, and he shoots FT's at an elite level. He's also capable of creating his own shots and shots for others. He can post up others too.

Obviously, picking Billups over other PG's in the game is very easy to do, but I also think he's a better complement to LeBron than Mo Williams.

[G-train]

Once again posters prove they don't understand the difference between good talent and good basketball players.

Cleveland has many good basketball players. They would definitely make the playoffs without Lebron.

[Roundball_Rock]

So which teams would Cleveland without Lebron be better than?

Cleveland C 34 11
Orlando C 29 15
Atlanta C 28 14
Boston C 28 13
Miami C 23 20
Toronto C 22 22
Charlotte C 21 21
Chicago C 20 22

Milwaukee C 18 24
New York C 17 25
Indiana C 15 29
Detroit C 15 28
Philadelphia C 15 28
Washington C 14 28
New Jersey C 3 40

It is easy to see "they would make the playoffs" in the abstract. Let's compare them to specific teams they would need to beat for a playoff spot.

[sixer6ad]

What a waste of time and energy. This may be the biggest "if" forum in the history of ISH.

34-11
Best Record in the League
Lebron starts and plays a lot
Has played in Cleveland his entire career
All of this speculation can wait until July

If my aunt had....she'd be my uncle. Cracks me up that people would follow the lead of - yes, that's right - Ron Artest. Drink the kool-aid of - yes, that's right - Ron Artest.

[lilgodfather1]

So which teams would Cleveland without Lebron be better than?

Cleveland C 34 11
Orlando C 29 15
Atlanta C 28 14
Boston C 28 13
Miami C 23 20
Toronto C 22 22
Charlotte C 21 21
Chicago C 20 22

Milwaukee C 18 24
New York C 17 25
Indiana C 15 29
Detroit C 15 28
Philadelphia C 15 28
Washington C 14 28
New Jersey C 3 40

It is easy to see "they would make the playoffs" in the abstract. Let's compare them to specific teams they would need to beat for a playoff spot.

I think they'd be about a game behind Milwaukee.