LeBron vs Durant at age 21-Was LeBron really superior?

[Kblaze8855]

Great Thread. Its funny how the stat worshiping Lebron fans NOW say stats arent everything Lmfao the hypocrisy.

If the stats are everything....

Lebron was putting up over 31/7/6 on 48% shooting. Durant doesnt have better numbers as it is. If you are gonna go down a list and modify stats to be what they would be if reality were different(Lebron did not play 36 minutes a game nor does Durant) and then act as if it is a failing to be shooting more or have a high usage rate(Jordans is the highest of all time) and call it a statistical advantage fine. But lets not act like they are stats that reflect how well you play basketball. Really...usage rate? Its hurting a team for Lebron to have the ball more or something? Of course not. But it suggests he has...what...more chances to produce stats? Perhaps he has it because of a positive...like say....being his teams best playmaker and player by such a wide margin they lean on him more?

A list of adjusted plus/minus the last few years had Amir Johnson over Kobe. But I care about it now? Peja led the league in Win Shares once. Andris Biedrins, Brad Miller, and Brian Cardinal led the league in offensive rating. Michael Jordan never did.

Why do I need to care about these things? I dont see it. Not to the extent I pretend that Lebron wasnt scoring more while being a better playmaker by a miles and a somewhat better defender.

Hes is better at the only thing I can ever see him being better at. Shooting jumpers. Not playing basketball.

[che guevara]

Lebron was a beast in the playoffs? He averaged the same stats, however played about 5 more minutes then in the regular season. He didn't play bad like he did the next 2 playoffs, but he didn't play well.
I said Lebron was quite a bit better passer, but he more then loses that advantage with his terrible D, and then when you add scoring efficiency, I'd take Durant.

31/8/6 on 48% isn't playing well? Just shows how ridiculously good Lebron is. That is including the slow paced Pistons series. And why are we acting like Durant is a good defender? He's a slightly more efficient scorer - that's it. Lebron is equal or better in every other category, except a slight disadvantage in D (I'm guessing - from what I've seen Durant is just as bad on the defensive end as Lebron was at 21, but I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt here). You can't adjust for minutes and not adjust for pace if you're trying to make an unbiased evaluation, which the you and the OP are clearly not interested in doing. You're the same guy who said Kobe was the MVP even after it was blatantly obvious that he had no case whatsoever.

[joyner82]

If you're going to adjust for minutes, then you also have to adjust for pace. The 2006 Cavs played slower than the 2010 Thunder. I also find it funny that you act as if Lebron's massive advantage in assists isn't significant.

Lebron was a monster in the playoffs that year, averaging 31/8/6 on 48% shooting and he took the defending Eastern Champs to 7 games, losing game 6 by just 2 points. Let's see how Durant fairs in the playoffs before we compare.

Probably because LeBron has a higher USG% than Durant

WTF does pace have to do with anything.

LeBron averaged 3 more FGA and .3 more FTA for the year. What does that have to do with pace?

OKC is attempting 80.6 FGA per game this year
Cleveland attempted 78.4 in 2006

Hardly a difference

[Kblaze8855]

However Lebron was an absolutely horrifyingly bad defender.

If only for phyiscal tools Lebron has never even been a below average defender. But he suffers from what many stars do. Being one of the few guys on the floor people pay attention to on D as an individual. Idiots were calling him one of the worst defenders in the league when he was on a team with Damon Jones...who nobody with common sense would put on a guy for defense instead of Lebron. The majority of his teammates have always been worse defenders than him.

But people said it anyway. The average NBA defender is doing nothing special. At his worst he wasnt even one of the lesser defenders in the league if only for the ability his physical tools gave him.

[magnax1]

31/8/6 on 48% isn't playing well? Just shows how ridiculously good Lebron is. That is including the slow paced Pistons series. And why are we acting like Durant is a good defender? He's a slightly more efficient scorer - that's it. Lebron is equal or better in every other category, except a slight disadvantage in D. You can't adjust for minutes and not adjust for pace if you're trying to make an unbiased evaluation, which the you and the OP are clearly not interested in doing. You're the same guy who said Kobe was the MVP even after it was blatantly obvious that he had no case whatsoever.

Compared to his regular season? No its not playing well.

If only for phyiscal tools Lebron has never even been a below average defender. But he suffers from what many stars do. Being one of the few guys on the floor people pay attention to on D as an individual. Idiots were calling him one of the worst defenders in the league when he was on a team with Damon Jones...who nobody with common sense would put on a guy for defense instead of Lebron. The majority of his teammates have always been worse defenders than him.

But people said it anyway. The average NBA defender is doing nothing special. At his worst he wasnt even one of the lesser defenders in the league if only for the ability his physical tools gave him.

I disagree. Just because he was using most of his energy on offense doesn't make him a better defender. If so, you could say the same about Barkley. Hes not terrible anymore, but before 07 he was. He put basically no effort into the defensive end other then trying to fly around and get steals and blocks. Durant isn't anything special on D either, but hes not near as bad as Lebron was.

[joyner82]

31/8/6 on 48% isn't playing well? Just shows how ridiculously good Lebron is. That is including the slow paced Pistons series. And why are we acting like Durant is a good defender? He's a slightly more efficient scorer - that's it. Lebron is equal or better in every other category, except a slight disadvantage in D (I'm guessing - from what I've seen Durant is just as bad on the defensive end as Lebron was at 21, but I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt here). You can't adjust for minutes and not adjust for pace if you're trying to make an unbiased evaluation, which the you and the OP are clearly not interested in doing. You're the same guy who said Kobe was the MVP even after it was blatantly obvious that he had no case whatsoever.

Uh Durant's defensive rating is top 20 in the league this year. LeBron wasn't top 50 in his 3rd season.

Have you watched OKC play this year?

[che guevara]

Compared to his regular season? No its not playing well.

Regular season - 31/7/6.6 on 48% shooting. Playoffs - 31/8/6 on 48% shooting, 7 of the 13 games coming against one of the 4 best teams in the league. Yeah, what a serious dropoff.

[magnax1]

Regular season - 31/7/6.6 on 48% shooting. Playoffs - 31/8/6 on 48% shooting, 7 of the 13 games coming against one of the 4 best teams in the league. Yeah, what a serious dropoff.

Regular season-
42 minutes a game
Postseason- 47 minutes a game
I already pointed this out, if you want to ignore it, you can continue do so.

[Kblaze8855]

Id like to see the top 50. Usually its a handfull of guys from every good defensive team jumbled together same as plus/minus. Good teams have 3-4 guys near the top in plus minus just as good defensive teams have a number of guys near the top in defensive ratings. If teams dont score much vs your team...they shouldnt score much when your guys who play the most minutes are in.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Regular season-
42 minutes a game
Postseason- 47 minutes a game
I already pointed this out, if you want to ignore it, you can continue do so.

The 5 turnovers per game also can't be ignored.

[che guevara]

Id like to see the top 50. Usually its a handfull of guys from every good defensive team jumbled together same as plus/minus. Good teams have 3-4 guys near the top in plus minus just as good defensive teams have a number of guys near the top in defensive ratings. If teams dont score much vs your team...they shouldnt score much when your guys who play the most minutes are in.

Average Cleveland PPG in postseason - 90.4. Regular season - 97.6. That can't be ignored either.

The 5 turnovers per game also can't be ignored.

Good point.

[joyner82]

Id like to see the top 50. Usually its a handfull of guys from every good defensive team jumbled together same as plus/minus. Good teams have 3-4 guys near the top in plus minus just as good defensive teams have a number of guys near the top in defensive ratings. If teams dont score much vs your team...they shouldnt score much when your guys who play the most minutes are in.

Look at the people who won it. Almost all either won DPOY of the year that season or were considered in the top 2-3.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_yearly.html

Also here is where the expected Defensive POY candidates rank

Dwight Howard-#1
Gerald Wallace-#5
Andrew Bogut-#2
Josh Smith-#9
Anderson Varejao-#15

[joyner82]

Oh and whoever talked about team +/- numbers

Durant in on pace to finish at +462 on a 52 win team
His next closest teammate is on pace to finish at +320

A difference which is the largest in the NBA among teammates 1 and 2 on any playoff team

In 06 LeBron finished at +242 on a 50 win team
Eric Snow finished at +235

[abuC]

If you're going to use per 36 stats I don't see how you can then ignore the cumulative PER numbers, where in LeBron had a 28.1 PER vs Durants 25.4 PER.

Statistically when the numbers are added up and adjusted for pace LeBrons are better.

[joyner82]

If you're going to use per 36 stats I don't see how you can then ignore the cumulative PER numbers, where in LeBron had a 28.1 PER vs Durants 25.4 PER.

Statistically when the numbers are added up and adjusted for pace LeBrons are better.

Adjusted for recent trends, since January, Durant is on pace to finish at 26.7 PER.

Also adjusted for pace does not make LeBron's number better. The Cavs averaged 2 less FGA, that's a marginal differential.