Bill Russell Vertical Leap

[jlauber]

On the bridge tip, Robert Parrish was asked who was the strongest player he faced, he said Artest Gilmore. Not Shaq. Wilt had no problem with Gilmore. Great post again J.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1

[Pointguard]

On a side note, I do think early 70's Wilt could do a good job against Shaq defensively, probably about as good as anyone I can think of in history, while nobody could stop prime Shaq 1 on 1, the bulked up defensive specialist version of Wilt would probably make him work for his points.

Great post my fellow Knick fan,

Yeah Shaq's quick foot movement and mass would have made him pretty much unstoppable. I agree there. Shaq complained about foul calls while Boston was allowed to climb all over you and karate chop Chamberlain so this is a hard measure as to how much they would let Chamberlain get away with. It would not matter how things would be called when Wilt has the ball. Rebounds, blocked shots, endurance, post moves, scoring know how and activity would have heavily favored Wilt.

I think scoring knowhow is greatly underestimated. If D Howard had scoring knowhow and savvy, even at the level of a young Amare Stoudamire he would be of more conversation than Shaq, since he will leave the league with at least ten titles for bounds and blocked shots as well. Shaq was never a complete center like Kareem or Wilt.

[Pointguard]

Wilt blocked 17 shots in his first game along with 43 points and 28 boards. There are several reports of him having back to back 20 block games. So the next argument will be that people back then were blockheaded and aimed the ball at Wilt's hands.

Some Celtics would say he would block 25 shots in a game and those guys were HOF's.

Walt Bellamy was leading the league in FG percentage and rocking 30 ppg as a rookie proving himself to be a proficient scorer and one that could make adjustments - a great year for the HOFer Bellamy until he met Wilt. Wilt blocked his first nine shots and then said "you can score now little fellow."

Regardless of what you are thinking it requires crazy timing, explosion and will to go after 20 shots while you are getting 20 boards and getting 40ppg while rarely sitting down the whole season. His activity level was off the hook.

[Pointguard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1

THANKS FOR THE ASSIST J.

[Fatal9]

About Wilt's max high jump which was 6'6:

I think people overlook the fact that from his feet to his waist, Wilt was freakishly long. I'd estimate he was about 4.5 feet tall at his waist. High jump is all about getting the lower half of your body over the bar (ie. getting your waist over) and the rest of your body will follow, especially the way the old schoolers jumped.

What he lacked for in his vertical jump, he makes up easily with his long legs. Wilt essentially had a foot higher head start over your typical high jumper because of this. He needs to jump only about 2 feet to get his waist level with the bar. Measuring purely the vertical part of his jump, he needs to jump about ~ 2.5 feet to clear the bar with his waist and then time his legs to cross as well. Notice here, it's all about getting his waist about half a foot over the bar:



It's great coordination for a man his size, but the freakishly long lower half of his body is what make him a great high jumper, not his vertical (which is quite average). The fact his highest jump was 6'6, only further confirms that his vertical was in the 30-33 inch range, because that's exactly the height you'd expect him to max out at.

LOL @ 42+ inches. Yea, I'm sure Wilt had a higher vertical than MJ and Vince. Makes me wonder how these people function in real life with such little common sense. Nothing worse than stans who go out of their way to exaggerate their favorite athlete's feats. There's no doubt in my mind Russell had a higher vertical leap, he cleared 6'8 while being much shorter and would routinely win jumpballs against him.

6'6 btw wouldn't even get you a medal at high school regionals these days. You need to be jumping at least 6'8-6'10 to even get a scholarship. Russell got up to 6'10 which is impressive (but not even close to being world class today, which is at least 7'4+ today), and I've always said Russell could jump higher than Wilt and that only further confirms it.

James White, who has a 44 inch vertical and is 6'7, can clear 7'4 despite having terrible form and jumping only part-time:



^ THIS is what a real 43-45 inch vertical looks like. Wilt despite possessing this 45+ inch vertical (shit even 40+ inches), can only clear 6'6, and that's mainly because of his freakishly long legs.

Use some logic here...James White who is 6'7, doesn't have the long legs of Wilt/Russell, has a 44 inch vertical jumps 7'4 despite having terrible form, but Wilt (who maxes out at 6'6) and Russell (maxes out at 6'10), who not only have a height advantage in that their waist is higher, jump 40+ inches? The high jump argument makes no sense. I've said Wilt's max vertical was probably around 30-33 inches, which is excellent, and looking at his high jump stats, that's exactly what you'd expect him to jump as I quoted above.

Again, quit overrating the hell out of these guys.

[Showtime]

So...people are trying to argue that James White can almost make it and come within an inch or two, but 6'9" and 7 foot high-jumpers can't even come close?

[jlauber]

About Wilt's max high jump which was 6'6:



6'6 btw wouldn't even get you a medal at high school regionals these days. You need to be jumping at least 6'8-6'10 to even get a scholarship. Russell got up to 6'10 which is impressive (but not even close to being world class today, which is at least 7'5+ today), and I've always said Russell could jump higher than Wilt and that only further confirms it.

James White, who has a 44 inch vertical and is 6'7, can clear 7'4 despite having terrible form:



^ THIS is what a real 43-45 inch vertical looks like. Wilt despite possessing this 45+ inch vertical (shit even 40+ inches), can only clear 6'6, and that's mainly because of his freakishly long legs.

Use some logic here...James White who is 6'7, doesn't have the long legs of Wilt/Russell, has a 44 inch vertical jumps 7'4 despite having terrible form, but Wilt (who maxes out at 6'6) and Russell (maxes out at 6'10), who not only have a height advantage in that their waist is higher, jump 40+ inches? The high jump argument makes no sense. I've said Wilt's max vertical was probably around 30-33 inches, which is excellent, and looking at his high jump stats, that's exactly what you'd expect him to jump as I quoted above.

I am so sick of your NONSENSE. Wilt had TERRIBLE form...and jumped PART-TIME. And all of that was BEFORE the "Fosbury Flop" era of today.

ONE MORE TIME:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_Flop

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"The Fosbury Flop is a style used in the athletics event of high jump. It was popularized and perfected by American athlete Dick Fosbury, whose gold medal in the 1968 Summer Olympics brought it to the world's attention. Over the next few years the flop became the dominant style of the event and remains so today. Before Fosbury, most elite jumpers used the Straddle technique, Western Roll, Eastern cut-off or even Scissors-Jump to clear the bar. Given that landing surfaces had previously been sandpits or low piles of matting, high jumpers of earlier years had to land on their feet or at least land carefully to prevent injury. With the advent of deep foam matting high jumpers were able to be more adventurous in their landing styles and hence experiment with styles of jumping and giving jumpers about 25% higher jumps"[/COLOR]

Wilt's coach believed that Wilt would have been clearing 7-0 BTW, had he devoted himself to it...instead of being a member of KU's 4x100 team, their 440 team, their 880 team, their HIGH-JUMP team (and a Big-7 champ BTW), their LONG-JUMP team, their TRIPLE-JUMP team, and their shot-put team...ALL, in ADDITION to playing basketball.

Look, we have RESPECTED EYE-WITNESS accounts of Wilt touching the top of the backboard (13 ft.) We have eye-witness accts of Wilt dunking on a 12 ft rim. We have RULES put in place, aimed strictly at Wilt, banning the dunking of FT's, which Wilt was doing. Wilt was at LEAST 7-1 (and I am convinced he was at least 7-2 BTW), with a MEASURED 7'-8" wingspan. Combine that with his INCREDIBLE athleticism, and what is the question?

I don't know what Wilt's maximum vertical was, BUT, I am CONVINCED that other NBA player has ever reached the PINNACLE that Wilt did, which was probably well over 13 ft.

And Russell was right there with him. Abe posted an article in which Russell's wingspan was greater than Kareem's. Given the fact that Russell could easily have outjumped Kareem, what does that tell you?

[jlauber]

Incidently has there EVER been a more "anti-Wilt" poster in the history of this board, than Fatal9?

His LONE agenda here has been to disparage EVERY single accomplishment of Wilt, and at the same time, forgive all the failures of HIS idol, Kareem, who had PLENTY of them...particularly against a Chamberlain who was well past his peak, and who thoroughly outplayed Kareem before his injury.

He has ripped Wilt for his 62-63 season, for "stats padding", despite the fact that that single season may have been the GREATEST INDIVIDUAL season in NBA HISTORY.

He has ripped Wilt for his stats, despite the fact that they occurred against TWELVE HOF centers. Not only that, but he DOMINATED them all.

Of course, he will rip MJ, here too...but when it comes to MJ or Wilt...then all of a sudden Jordan was a GREAT player.

He obviously has a clear-cut agenda against Wilt...whom he NEVER actually SAW play.

[Fatal9]

So...people are trying to argue that James White can almost make it and come within an inch or two, but 6'9" and 7 foot high-jumpers can't even come close?

James White also has a 10-12+ inch vertical advantage against these guys. His standing reach is 8'9 (add 3-4 inches because of extension from one side of body), and he probably jumps about 12'10 there. He is jumping 45-46 inches there and not making it. Wilt's standing reach was 9'6 (when extending one side of his body probably about 9'9), and he'd need to jump around 40 inches to get the top. Russell's standing reach is less than Wilt's and I'd guess he needs 42-44 inches to make it to the top (that's passing Michael Jordan territory). In other words: not happening. 12 foot dunk I can buy because Wilt needs to jump 31-33 inches to reach that. You can keep believing these ludicrous eye witness accounts from the 60s though of 6'2 Earl Manigault, 6'3 David Thompson, 6'6 Gus Johnson pulling out 50+ inch verticals to do it.

[whatever666]

You people have to understand that size and wingspan (or reach) matters very much!!
A 30" inch vertical allows a taller guy to get much higher up than a 6 footer with a 30" inch vertical.....

Here is some mathematics for you, for example =

If you are 7

[Psileas]

Incidently has there EVER been a more "anti-Wilt" poster in the history of this board, than Fatal9?

Well, I wouldn't call BULLS a normal poster, more like a super-troll, but he was as comical as hell. If you didn't read him, you are lucky.
Once he'd post that he owned videos of full 60's NBA seasons, saw these players live and repeatedly trashed them, trying to argue seriously stuff like whether Thurmond could dunk or not or whether Robertson could dribble without looking the ball. Then, he'd get banned, login with a new account and claim new stuff, like him having a 50-inch vertical (never mind his supposed age) or that Russell was maybe a top-20 center all-time. About 20-25% of my ignore list includes his various accounts. After a while, his posts had become so transparent that I'd add his new accounts to my ignore list after reading a single post of his.

Maybe you have seen him in some other forum. He was getting banned wherever he stepped. In RealGM he got banned within 1 week or so...His style was this: "Listen kid, I forgot more basketball than you ever saw. I watched Wilt live and I assure you he dominated because of the WEAK competition of the era. Competition was WEAK back then!".

[LilMattWieters]

Ahh, arguing in circles. Love it.

[jlauber]

Well, I wouldn't call BULLS a normal poster, more like a super-troll, but he was as comical as hell. If you didn't read him, you are lucky.
Once he'd post that he owned videos of full 60's NBA seasons, saw these players live and repeatedly trashed them, trying to argue seriously stuff like whether Thurmond could dunk or not or whether Robertson could dribble without looking the ball. Then, he'd get banned, login with a new account and claim new stuff, like him having a 50-inch vertical (never mind his supposed age) or that Russell was maybe a top-20 center all-time. About 20-25% of my ignore list includes his various accounts. After a while, his posts had become so transparent that I'd add his new accounts to my ignore list after reading a single post of his.

Maybe you have seen him in some other forum. He was getting banned wherever he stepped. In RealGM he got banned within 1 week or so...His style was this: "Listen kid, I forgot more basketball than you ever saw. I watched Wilt live and I assure you he dominated because of the WEAK competition of the era. Competition was WEAK back then!".

Well, I am probably a relative new-comer to this forum, so I am not sure if I ever read anything by that guy.

And, actually Fatal9 is an intelligent poster. I have even quoted some of his research here (Kareem vs. Hakeem in the mid-80's, and MJ against the "Bad Boys" in the late 80's.)

But, I just don't get it. His "anti-Wilt" posts are almost comical. He rips Wilt for playing 48 mpg. He rips Wilt for "stats-padding", and then rips Wilt for not scoring enough in some of his playoff battles. He rips Wilt's competition, many of whom are in the HOF. He rips Wilt for being a "loser" but won't acknowledge that Kareem was an even greater disappointment until Magic carried those Laker teams to five titles in the 80's. He rips Wilt for his "inefficient" scoring seasons (Wilt was shooting between .500 to .540 in those seasons), but does not acknowledge that Kareem had FOUR seasons, in the 70's (and before Magic raised his FG% considerably in the 80's) of .539, .529, .518, and .513. AND, he does not mention that Wilt's 62-63 season was statistically "off the charts"... 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting in a league that shot .441 (or Wilt's 65-66 season when he scored 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting in a league that shot .433) Or that his "scoring" seasons and efficiency blow away Hakeem's and Robinson's BEST seasons.

He uses era against Wilt for rebounding, despite the fact, that even taking era into account, Wilt is STILL the greatest rebounder ever...especially if you take the post-season into account. Or that Wilt, at his peak, was probably the greatest defensive center of all-time. He was holding the "efficient" Kareem to a CAREER .464 FG% in 28 H2H meetings...all on a surgically repaired knee and at 11 years older (including .457 in the '71-72 WCF's...and .414 over the last four games of that series...or that he held Kareem to .450 in their six regular season games in Wilt's LAST season.) Or that Wilt consistently outrebounded the younger and taller Kareem. Or that Wilt thoroughly outplayed Kareem in their only meeting before Wilt's injury.

Or that Wilt, AFTER retirement, and in the early 80's, dominated a game in which Magic Johnson played (as seen by none other than Larry Brown.) Or that in the mid-80's, and in his late 40's, Wilt was seen to have just abused 7-4 Mark Eaton (as witnessed by Kiki Vandewege.)

Maybe Wilt could not jump 48" as he himself claims. I am convinced that no one else has ever reached the heights that Wilt did. And, the vast majority of those that played with, or against Wilt...or who coached with, or against Wilt,...or the vast majority of the media that covered Wilt...would say he was the strongest, highest leaping, and perhaps, the fastest player to have ever played.

Or that those that actually SAW Wilt play, like the well-respected coach Red Holzman, would attest to his OUTSIDE shooting skills. Or that he was routinely scoring 30 and 40 ppg against Russell, for cryingoutloud, who, was a world-class athlete in his own right. Or that Wilt outplayed every oppsoing center in his 29 post-season series, some by HUGE margins, (and he faced a HOF center in 112 of those 160 games.)

I could go on-and-on. Most everyone here has read it all already. But, in any case, I just don't understand it.

[AirJordan23]

Fatal9 is probably my favorite poster on here. Posts are always a good read and he knows his stuff. And I say this despite his anti MJ agenda. That thread he made about getting a KB tat had me in tears.

[Jasper]

Back in the 70's I caught wind that Bucks Curtis Perry could touch the top of the backboard.
I looked for all possible articles etc ... to no avail.

I finally got a hold of one of his old teammates , and asked him.
He said absolutely 'NO'

** But as an ex NBA player he did tell me that with in the league (we are talking about players) Wilt and Bill were said to have done it.

*That's all I got on this subject.