Kobe will win the MVP and scoring title this year.

[ginobli2311]

Your saying they '03 Spurs and '94 Rockets didn't have great role players and "uber talented" players?

Popovich and Rudy T are on coach Spo's level?

I think you just owned yourself.

the 03 spurs and 94 rockets had less than half the talent outside of duncan and hakeem that the current lakers do.

i don't know what you are talking about with Spo. that makes no sense.

look.

where are kobe's legendary performances when his team is down and struggling in the nba finals?

where was he in 04? this guy is supposed to be one of the best ever. why can't he ever elevate his play and his team's play when they are down?

where was he in 08? why couldn't he establish himself as the best player in that series. is phil jackson odom/gasol/fisher and decent role players really not enough? are you really going to say he didn't have enough help?

where was he in the 06 series against the suns? he scored almost 8 points less per game in that playoff series than he did in the regular season. the suns were one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

why couldn't he dominate that series the way wade dominated the nba finals that same year? why does a guy like wade play so much better against the quality defensive teams in the playoffs?


the dude won three titles in 8 years playing with a prime/peaking shaq. come on now. thats hardly legendary. 3 titles in 8 years. stop acting like that is some amazing accomplishment as the 2nd best player on a title team with the greatest coach ever and a group of veteran role players/big shot makers like horry/fisher.

nobody is taking away from his accomplishments at all. he just hasn't played at the same high level as the other greats. its that simple. you have to win and play great. its not complicated.
where are kobe's legendary games as the leader of this team since 05 when the team needs him to step up when they are in danger of losing?

[Ne 1]

the 03 spurs and 94 rockets had less than half the talent outside of duncan and hakeem that the current lakers do.

Don't know what your getting at here. The 2003 Spurs and 1994 Rockets had good talent even outside of Duncan and Hakeem despite what you think. The Lakers have two superstar players in Kobe and Gasol but other teams had more well rounded teams. Don't know why your trying to act like the Lakers have some legendary stacked team or something.

where are kobe's legendary performances when his team is down and struggling in the nba finals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n5qLQ6ZUKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI

That was despite doctor's advising him to have surgery on his ankle that he injured in game 2 and sit out for the rest of the series.

where was he in 04?

He had a bad performance in the 2004 series vs Pistons, every Laker fan will tell you that. I really don't know what your getting at though. That was seven years ago and Kobe as come a long way since then. Anyways players should be judged by their greatness and accomplishments, not their short comings.

where was he in 08?

He showed up in 2008. The Lakers just got outplayed and lost to the better team.

Your just trolling. Kobe gets all the blame when his team loses but dosen't deserve any credit when they win? You talk about Gasol but ignore that he got completely destroyed by KG that series

where was he in the 06 series against the suns?

Really? The Suns had a stacked team with All-Star Shawn Marion as the third option, while the Lakers third leading scorer was Brian Cook. Kobe was playing with a bunch of guys that aren't even in the league anymore and you criticize him for losing against the Suns in '06? Your the same guy that gives LeBron a pass for losing against the Magic and Celtics despite having home court advantage and the #1 overall seed. Total hypocrisy.

the dude won three titles in 8 years playing with a prime/peaking shaq. come on now. thats hardly legendary.

Kobe is a 5x champion and that is all that matters. Who cares if he played with prime Shaq, that's irrelevant. Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest duo's in NBA history they both earned their stripes during the 3-peat. Look at Kobe's playoff production.

2000: 21/5/4
2001: 29/7/6
2002:27/6/5
With countless clutch shots and performances.

Not to mention a lot of people considered Kobe the 2nd best player in the league from 2001-2002.

Kobe's 3 titles don't count because he won with a dominant center? Do Magic's 5 titles not count because he won with Kareem?

he just hasn't played at the same high level as the other greats. its that simple. you have to win and play great.

Kobe has played at a very high level, won and played great. Don't know what the hell your talking about.

[Shep]

Shep and Big Smoke,

did rosters and teammates hurt the chances for every other MVP winner in the history of the sport?

Magic had Kareem, Worthy, Scott, etc.
Bird had Mchale, Parrish, Johnson, etc.
Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, Grant, etc.


Why does Kobe have to be the only player in history to win an MVP with Smush, Kwame and Brian Cook for it to be valid?


All we've heard the last 5-6 years about MVP,


"top 4 seed"
"50 wins"
"best player on best team"


Now, none of that matters?

What is your criteria for MVP?

you have to find a middle ground. bryant's team is the deepest team in nba history and last season it consisted of 2 of the best 3 players in basketball, the best sixth man in the nba who also happened to be a top 6 power forward, a former defensive player of the year, and one of the best young centers in the nba. this season they've added onto that with great role players like barnes, and blake.

bryant also has to become the best player on his team for him to win it this season, which he clearly hasn't been over the first 20 games (which is why i said gasol needs to miss games for bryant to overtake him).

i just don't see it happening.

lebron won it last season with jamison/williams/o'neal
and in '09 with williams/ilgauskas/west
chris paul deserved it in '08 with west/chandler/stojakovic

these casts are all decidedly weaker than bryant's current cast

[ginobli2311]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Don't know what your getting at here. The 2003 Spurs and 1994 Rockets had good talent even outside of Duncan and Hakeem despite what you think. The Lakers have two superstar players in Kobe and Gasol but other teams had more well rounded teams. Don't know why your trying to act like the Lakers have some legendary stacked team or something.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n5qLQ6ZUKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI



He had a bad performance in the 2004 series vs Pistons, every Laker fan will tell you that. I really don't know what your getting at though. That was seven years ago and Kobe as come a long way since then. Anyways players should be judged by their greatness and accomplishments, not their short comings.




He showed up in 2008. The Lakers just got outplayed and lost to the better team.

Your just trolling. Kobe gets all the blame when his team loses but dosen't deserve any credit when they win? You talk about Gasol but ignore that he got completely destroyed by KG that series



Really? The Suns had a stacked team with All-Star Shawn Marion as the third option, while the Lakers third leading scorer was Brian Cook. Kobe was playing with a bunch of guys that aren't even in the league anymore and you criticize him for losing against the Suns in '06? Your the same guy that gives LeBron a pass for losing against the Magic and Celtics despite having home court advantage and the #1 overall seed. Total hypocrisy.

why couldn't he dominate that series the way wade dominated the nba finals that same year? why does a guy like wade play so much better against the quality defensive teams in the playoffs?

the dude won three titles in 8 years playing with a prime/peaking shaq. come on now. thats hardly legendary.

Kobe is a 5x champion and that is all that matters. Who cares if he played with prime Shaq, that's irrelevant. Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest duo's in NBA history they both earned their stripes during the 3-peat. Look at Kobe's playoff production.

2000: 21/5/4
2001: 29/7/6
2002:27/6/5
With countless clutch shots and performances.

Not to mention a lot of people considered Kobe the 2nd best player in the league from 2001-2002.

Kobe's 3 titles don't count because he won with a dominant center? Do Magic's 5 titles not count because he won with Kareem?



Kobe has played at a very high level, won and played great. Don't know what the hell your talking about.

agree to disagree.

you miss my points.

nobody is saying kobe is not a great great player. he's just not on the same level as the truly elite all time in my opinion.

for all the reasons i've mentioned. and LOL at the idea that kobe showed up in the 08 finals. paul pierce and kg outplayed him. he should have clearly been the best player in that series.

he had enough around him to win. his play was simply not good enough. so sick of hearing the "help" excuse in 08.

you aren't showing up when you are mainly a scorer and you shoot 40% for a series. that is not showing up. he also let his team wilt under the pressure and blow a huge lead at home.

[game3524]

I think Dwight will be the MVP, scoring title may be possible, even when Bynum returns Kobe shot's aren't going to drop that much. If anyone takes the hit, it will be Pau.

[DeronMillsap]

Give Kobe the regular season MVP. Usually regular MVP's don't win a title the same season.

Shaq and Duncan are the ones who's done it the last 12 years.

[game3524]

you have to find a middle ground. bryant's team is the deepest team in nba history and last season it consists of 2 of the best 3 players in basketball, the best sixth man in the nba who also happened to be a top 6 power forward, a former defensive player of the year, and one of the best young centers in the nba. this season they've added onto that with great role players like barnes, and blake.

bryant also has to become the best player on his team for him to win it this season, which he clearly hasn't been over the first 20 games (which is why i said gasol needs to miss games for bryant to overtake him).

i just don't see it happening.

lebron won it last season with jamison/williams/o'neal
and in '09 with williams/ilgauskas/west
chris paul deserved it in '08 with west/chandler/stojakovic

these casts are all decidedly weaker than bryant's current cast

When was Pau a top 3 player? And the Lakers aren't the deepest team in NBA history, in fact their depth was one of the biggest reason people didn't think they would repeat.

You got to love Kobe haters, they will do anything to bring down his accomplishments.

[Ne 1]

In the Finals, the Lakers swept the New Jersey Nets, and once again Shaq won the MVP Award. Kobe wasn't too bad either, averaging 27 points, 5.8 rebounds, and 5.3 assists per game, while shooting 51.4% from the floor.

It was also in this series that Bryant would begin to gain his reputation as clutch. In fourth quarters alone, he shot a staggering 63% from the field, while scoring 12 and 11 in the final quarter of games three and four.

USA Today recognized his greatness, saying: "Never before has a player on the winning team put up the numbers and had the impact that Bryant had against the Nets and not been selected series MVP."

[Ne 1]

he's just not on the same level as the truly elite all time in my opinion.

And why is it that you don't believe he's on the same level as the other all-time elite players?

Honest question. What are your thought processes whenever you decide debate basketball. Where do you gather your information from? How do you construct your thoughts? Do you read any dissenting views on the subject? Do you do any critical thinking?

I really want to know.

[Leviathon1121]

He had a bad performance in the 2004 series vs Pistons, every Laker fan will tell you that. I really don't know what your getting at though. That was seven years ago and Kobe as come a long way since then. Anyways players should be judged by their greatness and accomplishments, not their short comings.

Aren't you one of the Bryant homers who comes into Jordan threads and copy and paste the same tired stuff like "Jordans winning % without Pippen SUCKS" followed by 457 ?

Why is it you can't hold Bryant to the same diminishment standards that you hold Jordan too?

[tpols]

And why is it that you don't believe he's on the same level as the other all-time elite players?

Honest question. What are your thought processes whenever you decide debate basketball. Where do you gather your information from? How do you construct your thoughts? Do you read any dissenting views on the subject? Do you do any critical thinking?

I really want to know.

he's trolling man. Kobe has been the best player of this generation and the second most clutch player all time behind jordan. A true champion. Don't even bother with him.

[ginobli2311]

And why is it that you don't believe he's on the same level as the other all-time elite players?

Honest question. What are your thought processes whenever you decide debate basketball. Where do you gather your information from? How do you construct your thoughts? Do you read any dissenting views on the subject? Do you do any critical thinking?

I really want to know.

i just watch. and then i go to the numbers. its not complicated. when i watch kobe play....i think he's great. but i don't think he's as great as like duncan/shaq/lebron/wade of this era. or bird/mj/magic..etc. all time.

my eyes tell me. then i go to the stats and numbers and they confirm what my eyes see. its like watching kobe play in the finals. if i didn't know the numbers i would have thought:

"damn...that guy is shooting way too much for how many shots he's making"...and "damn...that guy is turning the ball over a lot in critical situations and missing and taking even more awful shots late in the game"

and guess what? the numbers (critical turnovers late and 25% shooting in the 4th qtrs for the series) back up what i saw unfold.

its not difficult at all. i saw kobe wilt in 04 and 08. truly elite players don't get outplayed by the likes of paul pierce on the biggest stage. truly great players don't play the 04 series against the pistons.

again. imagine mj getting outplayed by drexler and the blazers winning the title and drexler winning finals mvp. LOL at that idea. and i'll take drexler over pierce all day as a player.

kobe takes some of the worst shots i've ever seen in big games and big moments. could you imagine bird freezing his teammates out and chucking it up at like 37% in the nba finals? its laughable.

[Ne 1]

Aren't you one of the Bryant homers who comes into Jordan threads and copy and paste the same tired stuff like "Jordans winning % without Pippen SUCKS" followed by 457 ?

Why is it you can't hold Bryant to the same diminishment standards that you hold Jordan too?

The only reason I ever brought that up was for the trolls hating on Pippen saying that he's just a overrated side-kick and that Jordan made him.

I just point out the fact that Pippen without Jordan did better than Jordan did without Pippen. Of course its deeper than that but I'm just trolling trolls is all.

[tpols]

i just watch. and then i go to the numbers. its not complicated. when i watch kobe play....i think he's great. but i don't think he's as great as like duncan/shaq/lebron/wade of this era. or bird/mj/magic..etc. all time.

my eyes tell me. then i go to the stats and numbers and they confirm what my eyes see. its like watching kobe play in the finals. if i didn't know the numbers i would have thought:

"damn...that guy is shooting way too much for how many shots he's making"...and "damn...that guy is turning the ball over a lot in critical situations and missing and taking even more awful shots late in the game"

and guess what? the numbers (critical turnovers late and 25% shooting in the 4th qtrs for the series) back up what i saw unfold.

its not difficult at all. i saw kobe wilt in 04 and 08. truly elite players don't get outplayed by the likes of paul pierce on the biggest stage. truly great players don't play the 04 series against the pistons.

again. imagine mj getting outplayed by drexler and the blazers winning the title and drexler winning finals mvp. LOL at that idea. and i'll take drexler over pierce all day as a player.

kobe takes some of the worst shots i've ever seen in big games and big moments. could you imagine bird freezing his teammates out and chucking it up at like 37% in the nba finals? its laughable.

lol don't even put wade in the same sentence as kobe. What has wade done outside of 06 when he had a shaquille oneal who was still getting mvp votes? Go ahead and tell us what he's done. Lets see those eastern conference first round stats.

[Ne 1]

kobe takes some of the worst shots i've ever seen in big games and big moments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWXvi8waXyA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8nEq...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOXZ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDpPr...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0vf...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlusnThciI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xqLrgyVIAE