Better overall career: Dirk Nowitzki or Karl Malone?

[Rake2204]

Let's not forget Jordan was out for two years and the Jazz did not step up then.
90's was a weak era.

As they lost to the eventual champions in each of those years, I'm not sure I could be too hard on Utah for that one. That just kind of tells me that Utah was between the 2nd and 4th best team that year. Not being able to overcome a team featuring Michael Jordan or Beast-Mode Hakeem Olajuwon doesn't seem to seal the deal to me that a player or team wasn't still pretty great themselves. Utah stepped up in '94 and '95, just not on Hakeem and company's level.

[Micku]

Let's not forget Jordan was out for two years and the Jazz did not step up then.
90's was a weak era.

And what stopped Dirk for stepping it up for the past decade? A whole bunch of teams. He couldn't get it over the hump just like Karl Malone, until now that is.

You could say that Karl Malone had Stockton, and it was a disappointing run. But you could say the same about Barkley and Kevin Johnson I guess.

[creepingdeath]

I respect your opinion there, but I feel in that particular instance, that wasn't Malone choking. Instead, I thought it was a terribly heady play by MJ. Sure, maybe Malone should have seen him coming, but I don't view that as a choke. A choke to me would be more along the lines of a player not reaching their normal ability because they're nervous or otherwise offset about the largeness of the moment. In my opinion, in that exact situation, Malone would have been stripped ten out of ten times.

I think there'd be a better case made for Malone being a choker for when he missed his "Mailman don't deliver on Sunday" free throw. Even then, he's a career 75% shooter from the stripe. It wasn't exactly abnormal for him to miss a free throw or two. Further, I do not subscribe to the "he makes them when they count" theory. They always count. In this case, I'd blame Malone's overall deficiency as a free throw shooter (in comparison to Dirk) more than I would his alleged tendency to choke.

I can't believe I'm kind of defending Karl Malone.

The Jordan card is overplayed. Malone lost twice to MJ, which would be excusable, but he failed against other teams, too.
And you just cannot turn the ball over being up 1 in an elimination game with 37 seconds to go. Or shoot 7-15 from the charity stripe in another elimination game.

I'd pick Dirk, but I'm clearly biased and I accept differing opinions. What we all can agree on, though, is that Malone was a pathetic piece of sh*t as a person, unlike Dirk.

[kizut1659]

And what stopped Dirk for stepping it up for the past decade? A whole bunch of teams. He couldn't get it over the hump just like Karl Malone, until now that is.

You could say that Karl Malone had Stockton, and it was a disappointing run. But you could say the same about Barkley and Kevin Johnson I guess.

You could and should say it about Barkley, which is why he is below both Dirk and Malone.

[joshwake]

yea Karl had Stockton, but dirk had a ridiculous supporting cast. The Mavs are stacked with excellent role players. Other than Hornaceck, Utah had Bryon Russel and Greg Ostertag.

Once again ISH and NBA fans in general are completely ignoring defense.

[Patrick Chewing]

Dirk (IMO) has a good 2-3 years left of this type of play and can probably play til he's 38-40 as a role player if he wants to that.

Ask me again when Dirk's career is over. Dirk will surpass 30k points, and by the time his career is done he will easily be in the Top 5-10 in many of the major statistical categories including the playoff statistical categories.

Seriously, Dirk isn't done yet. His style of play enables him to last longer than most athletes on the court.

He is winning in the midst of so many great players around him on other teams that you have to give him his due respect. He beat Kobe, he beat Durant, he beat Wade, and he beat LeBron. He will top 10 when it's all said and done.

[kizut1659]

yea Karl had Stockton, but dirk had a ridiculous supporting cast. The Mavs are stacked with excellent role players. Other than Hornaceck, Utah had Bryon Russel and Greg Ostertag.

Once again ISH and NBA fans in general are completely ignoring defense.

Who did Bulls have in 98 besides injured Pippen, Kukoc, and Rodman who was so much of a distraction by that point that he was pulled out of the starting lineup?

[kizut1659]

Seriously, Dirk isn't done yet. His style of play enables him to last longer than most athletes on the court.

He is winning in the midst of so many great players around him on other teams that you have to give him his due respect. He beat Kobe, he beat Durant, he beat Wade, and he beat LeBron. He will top 10 when it's all said and done.

Not going to happen unless he wins at least 2 more championships, which is highly highly unlikely. He is top 20 though now.

[D.J.]

Right now, it's still Malone. He had insane longevity, matched only by Kareem.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Stockton was still a 36 mpg in 1997 and played very well against the Bulls (basically winning game 4 for them.) In 1998, Stockton's minutes were reduced but the Bulls were also weaker - no longer having Bison Dele, Rodman going to wrestling shows in the middle of finals, Pippen being injured, and Jprdan being worse than he was in 1997.

Yeah, but even in his prime(which he was past or at the very end of by 1997), Stockton was never a true franchise player or MVP candidate so malone having Stockton is always overstated.

[Rake2204]

The Jordan card is overplayed. Malone lost twice to MJ, which would be excusable, but he failed against other teams, too.
And you just cannot turn the ball over being up 1 in an elimination game with 37 seconds to go. Or shoot 7-15 from the charity stripe in another elimination game.

I'd pick Dirk, but I'm clearly biased and I accept differing opinions. What we all can agree on, though, is that Malone was a pathetic piece of sh*t as a person, unlike Dirk.

This is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs but I'll say it anyway. . .

I agree that late turnovers and poor free throw shooting can't happen. What I was saying, was that in those particular instances I mentioned (the Jordan steal and the late free throw misses), I did not believe that was Malone choking. Rather, I just thought they were bad plays that would have happened regardless. Malone's free throw shooting is not in the same galaxy as Dirk's. And it's not as if Malone fumbled the rock off his own feet, Jordan snuck behind and took it.

So, it is my feeling that each of those plays could be chalked up as overall deficiencies moreso than Malone suddenly choking in the clutch. Either way, I think that helps the Nowitzki case. It seems I'm defending Malone and at the same time not.

[kizut1659]

Yeah, but even in his prime(which he was past or at the very end of by 1997), Stockton was never a true franchise player or MVP candidate so malone having Stockton is always overstated.

I agree to a certain extent, but He was still All-Nba and an All-Star. Also, an importance of having a great passer who will consistently gets you the ball cannot be underestimated. Frankly, I think part of the reason Dallas did not win in 2006 was because they didn't have a true point guard and Nowitski did not get the ball consistently and/or in the right places. Unlike Dirk, Malone always had that luxury.

[creepingdeath]

This is going to sound like I'm splitting hairs but I'll say it anyway. . .

I agree that late turnovers and poor free throw shooting can't happen. What I was saying, was that in those particular instances I mentioned (the Jordan steal and the late free throw misses), I did not believe that was Malone choking. Rather, I just thought they were bad plays that would have happened regardless. Malone's free throw shooting is not in the same galaxy as Dirk's. And it's not as if Malone fumbled the rock off his own feet, Jordan snuck behind and took it.

So, it is my feeling that each of those plays could be chalked up as overall deficiences moreso than Malone suddenly choking in the clutch. Either way, I think that helps the Nowitzki case. It seems I'm defending Malone and at the same time not.

I see your point. Had Dirk not willed his team to the finals - I think that alone was enough to straighten out most of the stereotypes, the ring was just the big fat icing on the cake - he would still (unfairly) be labeled a choker. Nowitzki obviously has his own share of playoff failures, but they (meaning 1.5 series) always dominated the media and the fan's public image of him, undeservingly so. Malone suffers from the same, partly distorted reputation. Winning a championship is such a fragile thing... so many things have to fall into place, so many tiny aspects can go wrong. It might not be fair to judge players by rings, and, I admit, Dirk winning one might have changed my perception. But to evaluate someone's impact on the game, championships have to play a certain role when judging and comparing all-time greats. Sure, we have to look at the context. I mean, Dirk had been criticized during the Nuggets series 2 years ago, when he averaged 34/12/4.. can you believe that? Or look at Dwight.. some people claim he's not a star since that Hawk series, but fail to look how the losses came to be.

Anyway.. I can't feel bad for Malone, though. He is a despicable human being.

[GOBB]

Dirk career isnt even over. How can I even decide?

[creepingdeath]

Dirk career isnt even over. How can I even decide?

Come on, we both know you'd take Kevin Love over him.