Why Do People Put MJ ahead of Wilt

[jlauber]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber


First of all, you were OBVIOUSLY NOT aware of that fact..


Here's a post of mine from the last page...


Quote:
that saw Philadelphia putting 3 all-stars on the floor (not including Chet Walker who put up all-star like numbers, and was one the year prior and after), where as the Celtics had only two, with Hondo playing at an all-star caliber level. Philadelphia lost in 7.


Sounds like I was was fully aware acknowledging both Chet Walker and Hondo's play, despite them not being "all-stars".

Hmmm. If that was the '67-68 post-season...and it MUST have been since that supposed series went to Boston, 4-3...

Boston had THREE "all-stars", Russell, Havlicek, and Sam Jones...while Philly only had Chamberlain and Greer. Secondly, Philly played that ENTIRE series without Billy Cunningham...and STILL had a 3-1 series lead. What happened after that? BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones (two more of a roster that only went seven deep) suffered knee injuries, and were worthless the rest of that series. Of course, the real reason that Philly lost that close seven game series? Chamberlain was nursing SEVERAL different injuries, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from games three thru seven. With all of that, Boston beat a crippled Sixer team in a game seven, by four points.

[catch24]

Hmmm. If that was the '67-68 post-season...and it MUST have been since that supposed series went to Boston, 4-3...Boston had THREE "all-stars", Russell, Havlicek, and Sam Jones...while Philly only had Chamberlain and Greer. Secondly, Philly played that ENTIRE series without Billy Cunningham...and STILL had a 3-1 series lead. What happened after that? BOTH Luke Jackson and Wali Jones (two more of a roster that only went seven deep) suffered knee injuries, and were worthless the rest of that series. Of course, the real reason that Philly lost that close seven game series? Chamberlain was nursing SEVERAL different injuries, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from games three thru seven. With all of that, Boston beat a crippled Sixer team in a game seven, by four points.

Not sure what any of this has to do with with my post or your original assertion. And no, it was the 1964-65 season; Hondo was NOT an all-star.

[JaskoX1]

You the old farts debating this pointless discussion?

where's Bruce Blitz when you need him lol.

[jlauber]

Not sure what any of this has to do with with my post or your original assertion. And no, it was the 1964-65 season; Hondo was NOT an all-star.

Oh, that season, when Russell's 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, beat Chamberlain's 40-40 Sixers, and their TWO...in a game seven, by ONE point. Yep...pretty even rosters there...



BTW, Boston had THREE "all-stars" that year...Russell, Sam Jones, and Tommy Heisohn. And also, those two "non All-stars" Wilt's Walker averaged 13.2 ppg that season, while Russell's Hondo averaged 18.3 ppg.

[catch24]

Oh, that season, when Russell's 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, beat Chamberlain's 40-40 Sixers, and their TWO...in a game seven, by ONE point. Yep...pretty even rosters there...

Yeah, lets pretend all six of those players from Boston were playing at an HoF level. Reality: Philadelphia had 3 all-stars (not including Wilt or Chet walker who both were putting up all-star like numbers) during the 1965 season. Not including Russell, Boston had just two all-stars with Hondo playing all-star like. Again, Philadelphia lost in 7.

[TAC602]

Oh, that season, when Russell's 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, beat Chamberlain's 40-40 Sixers, and their TWO...in a game seven, by ONE point. Yep...pretty even rosters there...



BTW, Boston had THREE "all-stars" that year...Russell, Sam Jones, and Tommy Heisohn.

Did you ever think that perhaps Chamberlain's impact wasn't as great as you believe it to be? God knows how many lies and distorted facts you've twisted and weaved in this thread. It's a different kind of troll behavior. It's disturbing.

[EricForman]

anyway, can we all agree that these are the players with a case/argument for GOAT:

Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell.

That's it. I, and the majority, believe Jordan has the best case, but it is reasonable for others to believe Kareem, or say, Wilt, has a better case.

Also, Kobe has an outside shot of entering that above realm because his career is still going on and he's in a good spot to add to his resume.

We need to all agree on this first, before continue to argue and throw out novels.

And while I'm at it, here are several more laws:

Shaq is above Hakeem, stop if you believe otherwise.

Kobe is definitely top 10, order is gonna be heated topic of debate but he's in there. Although as of now he has to be below Duncan and Shaq. Could change in a season or two.

This sh*t should be like terms of agreement that everyone agrees on before discussion.

[jlauber]

Did you ever think that perhaps Chamberlain's impact wasn't as great as you believe it to be? God knows how many lies and distorted facts you've twisted and weaved in this thread. It's a different kind of troll behavior. It's disturbing.

Give me the examples...

[jlauber]

Yeah, lets pretend all six of those players from Boston were playing at an HoF level. Reality: Philadelphia had 3 all-stars (not including Wilt or Chet walker who both were putting up all-star like numbers) during the 1965 season. Not including Russell, Boston had just two all-stars with Hondo playing all-star like. Again, Philadelphia lost in 7.

Where do you get your information from? Oh, from ME...(yes, I see I slighted Russell's "all-stars" in my original take...it was even MORE.)

Greer, Jackson, and a Wilt who joined this team at mid-season (a team that had gone 34-46 the year before)...while Boston had THREE ...Russell, Sam Jones, and Tommy Heinsohn.

[catch24]

Where do you get your information from? Oh, from ME...(yes, I see I slighted Russell's "all-stars" in my original take...it was even

The information I gathered is what I've researched on my own. Unfortunately, you're just not relevant enough to pledge off of.

Greer, Jackson, and a Wilt who joined this team at mid-season (a team that had gone 34-46 the year before)

More extraneous garbage. Together, Philadelphia still fielded more all-stars (and talent) that season.

[juju151111]

I assumed people put MJ above Wilt because he was better, but hey that's just a wild guess. Everyone wants a shot at MJ. The kobenutgaggers, The Kareem fans, and now Wilt fans. MJ is the majority Goat for a reason for the last 15 years.

[jlauber]

Did you ever think that perhaps Chamberlain's impact wasn't as great as you believe it to be? God knows how many lies and distorted facts you've twisted and weaved in this thread. It's a different kind of troll behavior. It's disturbing.

I wasnt going to waste my time to respond, but what the hell...

How is this for Wilt's IMPACT...

In his ROOKIE season, he came to what had been a LAST-PLACE team the year before, and immediately took them to a 49-26 record (which was a team record at the time), and shattered all kinds of scoring and rebound records in that season. He then took that LAST-PLACE roster to a first round playoff win, THEN, a game six loss, by two-points, against the 59-16 Celtics and their SEVEN HOFers. BTW, in game three he injured his hand, and played poorly that and the next game...both losses. In an "elimination game" game five, he hangs a 50 point, 35 rebound game on Russell, en route to a 128-107 win.

How much IMPACT did Chamberlain have that ROOKIE season? He not only won the ROY, he also won the MVP.

How about two years later, when he OBLITERATES the RECORD BOOK, with a 50.4 ppg , 25.7 rpg, .506 FG% (in a league that shot .426)? Was he "stats-padding" that season? Well, his TEAM went 49-31, and following a game five win over Syracuse in a best-of-series, in a game in which Chamberlain scored 56 points and grabbed 35 rebounds, his Warriors squared off against the 60-20 Celtics and their SEVEN HOFers. He LED that team, which was essentially the same remnants of the last place that he joined in '60... to a game seven, two-point loss. AND, how much help did he have in that post-season? His teammates collectively shot .354. Now, you tell me how much IMPACT Chamberlain had that season???!!!!

ShaqAttack and Fecal9 love to point out Wilt's 62-63 season. Why? Because playing with a cast of clowns, and arguably the WORST roster in NBA history, Chamberlain's TEAM went 31-49. Now, let's take a closer look shall we? That team lost 35 games by single digits, and had a -2.1 ppg differential. So, at least they were competitive. How did Wilt perform? All he did was average 47.6 mpg, and LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories. For the second straight season he RAN AWAY withe scoring title, at 44.8 ppg to Baylor's 34.0 ppg. He also LED the NBA in rebounding at 24.3 rpg, AND, he set a then-record FG% mark of .528. He even LED the league in WIN-SHARES (and by a wide margin.) In fact, using that stat, he was directly responsible for over 67% of his team's wins. He also had a PER of 31.8, which is the ALL-TIME record. How well did his teammates play? They collectively shot .412, ...which was WAY worse than the WORST TEAM in the league (.427.) BTW, in his NINE H2H games with Russell, Chamberlain not only outrebounded him, he outscored him, per game, 38-14. And SIX of those nine games were very close.

Once again...how bad was that 62-63 roster? Chamberlain's new coach, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, and against a group of draft picks and scrubs. Guess which team won? THEN, Wilt takes that putrid roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals, where they lose 4-1 to the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers, and two of the losses were in the finals seconds. BTW, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, per game, 27-25.

How was that for IMPACT???!!!


In the 64-65 season, a sick Wilt is traded at mid-season, for THREE players (and a boatload of cash) to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then takes that bottom-feeding team (and that also had to give up three players to get Wilt) to a 3-1 rout of the 48-32 Royals. THEN, he takes that same team to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, and their SIX HOFers...in a series in which Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg (and with a game seven of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds.) Now, you tell me how much IMPACT Wilt had with that team???!!! He took a 34-46 team, and that gave up THREE players to get him, to within ONE point, in a game SEVEN, of beating the 62-18 Celtics. Go ahead...give me your thoughts on just how much Wilt was worth to that team! A 34-46 team the year before, to within an eye-lash of beating a 62-18 team.

In Wilt's 65-66 season, all he did was LEAD the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; and set a then-record FG% mark of .540. He also handed out 5.2 apg, too. Oh, and BTW, he LED his team to the BEST RECORD in the league. How much IMPACT did he have that season???!!!

Then, in the playoffs, he averaged 28 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 against Russell. ..including a clinching game five loss of 46 points and 34 rebounds. Yep, it was WILT who was blamed for that 4-1 series loss...despite the fact that his five other teammates shot .429, .375, .352, .325, and .161 on that series. Wilt averaged about what he did during the regular season...and his teammates completely crumbled.

continued...

[guy]

He did take 30+ shots routinely. But no I don't think he should been shoting that much cuz that's not condusive to winning. And regardless, the team FG% leader is normally a bigman.

Jordan never averaged 30 shots per game and the he averaged 22-26 FGA per game during the 3-peats.

I think it depends on the player. Some players are pure shooters. They don't need to take a lot of shot to shoot a high %. The problem is most pure shooters aren't great athletes. Which makes them easy to defend. Another thing about pure shooters is they rarely take bad shots. Jordan was a great jumpshooter, but he wasn't a pure shooter. Like a ray allen, larry bird, or reggie miller.

First of all, Jordan's great efficiency has just as much to do with his great ability to get to the rim as it does with his great jumpshooting.

Second of all, even if Jordan is a streaky shooter, he was just as likely to start off a game going 9-14 as he is 6-14 (going back to your previous example), while ending the game with the same efficiency on his remaining shots, so your point about rhythm when it comes to Jordan doesn't hold much weight.

Anyway, if Jordan is regulated to shooting 10-15 shots per game instead of 20-25, he's not just going to play his regular game and shoot 6-14 and then all of a sudden stop shooting in the middle of the 3rd quarter. If he was only to shoot that many shots, he would space it out through 4 quarters meaning he would pick his shots more carefully meaning he would take a greater percentage of easier shots. Seriously, if Jordan only shot that much, you might've seen 57%-60% seasons in his prime .

That's cuz jordan is the greatest ever. I just take excepttion to the assumption that the bulls were the worse offense in the last 30 years. And then base that off of 5 or 6 games. You can't honestly feel that if those bulls teams were playing in the 70s and 80s were layup drills were common, that the FG% and ppg don't go up.

Worst offense in the last 30 years? I'm pretty sure he was only talking about championship teams, which is a small sample. And I believe he was only talking about these championship teams w/o there star player. If thats the case, its not a stretch at all to say they were the worst or one of the worst.

And you have a point about the 80s, but even then no one in their right mind would take a half-court offense of Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/etc. over Kareem/Worthy/Scott/etc or McHale/Parish/DJ/Ainge/etc.

The bulls were the top offensive team in 96. I believe 3rd in 97 and 8th in 98. And they would've been higher in 98 if pippen hadn't missed half the season

Well when you have arguably the greatest offensive player ever, its not a surprise. No one's saying the Bulls weren't an elite offensive team, just that without Jordan they were not close to that.

This isn't totally the truth either. He shouldered the load more than most offensively. But pippen shouldered more of the defense and rodman the rebounding. I really can't see them winning without the 3. Even in 97 and 98. Rodman may notve had a lot of rebounds. But he spent a lot of his time concentrating on the jazz best player. And he frustrated malone. I remember them posting a stat that showed when rodman was on malone, he shot around 41% or something. When caffey or longley defended him, he avg aroun 50%.

Okay, but the thing is Jordan DID shoulder much of the load defensively. Pippen didn't shoulder anywhere near as much of a load defensively as Jordan did offensively. Jordan wasn't someone like Dominique Wilkins who didn't much outside of score and especially didn't play any defense. He wasn't someone like Kobe Bryant, who's lived off his defensive reputation while conserving alot of energy on that end. Jordan took a slightly lesser or equal load defensively as Pippen except for 98 arguably.

If Jordan wasn't taking a larger load then most other championship superstars, who was? You can argue Hakeem and Duncan in 03 and maybe 99. Certainly not Bird or Magic who didn't take as much of a load offensively, and CLEARLY didn't defensively either. Not Shaq when he was arguably a liability at the end of games and leaned on the eventual 2nd greatest SG of all-time to close out games. Not Duncan in the other years when he depended alot offensively on Manu and Parker as he declined. Not Wade, Kobe, or Dirk who arguably did have the load offensively, but definitely not anywhere close defensively. Obviously not Isiah, Chauncey, or KG who all played on ensemble casts.

I really don't understand this new fad of degrading the players on championship teams to prop the best player. Trying to make it seem like 1 player wins a championship in spite of his teammates. And then when they can't, its cuz of his support, not him. Its the stupidest reasoning in sports.

Its a forum. No one is degrading anyone. Just pointing out the arguable truth. No one has said Jordan won in spite of them.

[G.O.A.T]

Only Kareem has had as complete of a career as Jordan has had; in terms of impact, playoff performances, championships, defensive prowess and personal accolades...Kareem is right there with Michael; Wilt falls drastically short in the championship department.

Wilt's a lot closer to Kareem in terms of Championship impact than Kareem is to Russell.

I have it

Wilt best player on two Champs
Kareem best player on three Champs
Russell best player on ten or eleven Champs

[jlauber]

Continuing...

How about Wilt's IMPACT in his 66-67 season? Finally playing with a quality supporting cast that can match Russell's HOF-laden roster, he LED his Sixers to a then best-ever NBA record, of 68-13. He averaged 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, and shot a mind-boggling .683 from the field (in a league that shot .441.) In the first round of the playoffs, he averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg and shot .612 (yes, a TRIPLE-DOUBLE series.) In the ECF's, and against Russell's 60-21 Celtics (with perhaps the deepest roster in NBA history), Chamberlain CRUSHED Russell. He again averaged a TRIPLE-DOUBLE series, by outscoring Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outrebounding Russell, per game, 32.0 rpg, to 23.0 rpg (yes, a full NINE RPG); outassisting Russell, per game, 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg; and outshooting Russell in that series, .556 to .358. In the clinching game five win, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 29-4 (with 22 coming in the first half when the game was still in doubt); outshot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell, 36-21. In the Finals, he POUNDS HOFer Nate Thurmond, outscoring, outrebounding, and outshooting him (by a staggering .560 to .343 margin), en route to LEADING his team to a dominating world title.

How much IMPACT did Wilt have that season???

In the 67-68 season, Chamberlain again led his Sixers to a run-away best record in the league, AND, in the process, he finished in the top-5 in NINETEEN of the league's 23 statistical categories...including leading the league in ASSISTS. However, and as I have documented MANY times, his team was DECIMATED by injuries, and they blew a 3-1 series lead to Boston, losing a game seven by four points. Still, Chamberlain played brilliantly, despite being noticeably hobbled from game three on. And, BTW, his teammates completely forgot about him the second half of that game seven...and they collectively shot .333. And it was WILT who was ripped afterwards, despite a 14-34 game. Overall, though, it was a DOMINATING season by Chamberlain, who also LED the league in DEFENSIVE WIN SHARES.

Chamberlain was "traded" to the Lakers after that 67-68 season...again, for THREE players, two of whom were quality players (more on that in a second.) Not only did Wilt have to replace those players ppg and rpg numbers from the season before, but LA also lost HOFer Gail Goodrich in the expansion draft. Overall, Wilt replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg worth of production. And even with West missing 20 games, the Lakers posted a then best ever record of 55-27. Meanwhile, Chamberlain's former team, the Sixers, "only" dropped from 62-20 to 55-27. BUT, despite Wilt's two "replacements" collectively averaging 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shooting .510...the Sixers are blown out in the first round by the 48-34 Celtics, 4-1. Think about that...Wilt's replacements average a 36-20 .510...and they are crushed 4-1, by the same Celtic team that struggled to beat an injured-riddled Sixer team, led by Chamberlain, in seven games, just the year before.

I have documented the 68-69 Lakers game seven, two-point loss against that Celtic team in the Finals MANY times before. I won't even rehash it now, except to say that Wilt was left on the bench by his idiotic coach in the last five minutes of that game seven, two point loss. We know that the Lakers obviously could not win without Wilt, though. BTW, in that season, all Chamberlain did was average 20.5 ppg, led the NBA in rebounding, at 21.1 rpg, and led the NBA in FG% at .583.

Continued...