Why Do People Put MJ ahead of Wilt

[PTB Fan]

Matter of opinion and their own point at this thing.

[catch24]

Chamberlain was also facing a HOF center in two-thirds of his 160 post-season games (49 against Russell alone, or about one-third!) Jordan's '86 Bulls could make the playoffs with a 30-52 record (which allowed MJ to average 43.7 ppg in his three playoff games).

Jordan was also facing better athletes and more (many more) teams. Jordan's team 'could make the playoffs' with a 30-52 record because talent was spread out, hence far more competition. There weren't just 8-10 teams to compete against vs less talented players. The talent pool was spread out during Jordan's ERA- there were simply more (and better) basketball players. Not debatable. Btw, Jordan faced twice as many HoFers in the playoffs.

So, while MJ was a better scorer in the POST-SEASON, it was not dramatically higher than a "scoring" Wilt.


No question. How about the regular season? BUT, a "scoring" Chamberlain, which only occurred in HALF of Wilt's career (although, as I pointed out, Wilt COULD have scored MUCH more from '67 thru '69.)

He wasn't just better, he was hands down better. Yes, his PPG numbers are dramatically higher than Wilt's. 32 PPG on 49% shooting > 22 PPG on 52% shooting quite easily. By most advanced measures, Jordan was considerably more efficient. MJ was a guard who's efficiency was similar to Wilt on more volume. During the 90's, he out-shot (while making more than half of them) the league comfortably I might add. Jordan scored more on better efficiency than Wilt during postseason-play also (57%TS vs 52%TS).


Again, significantly better. The numbers DONT lie. Chamberlain was NOT "lightyears" above MJ. Jordan, as you mentioned, held a higher career and postseason PPG average. Whether Wilt "could have scored more" is extraneous. It's what happened AND what is; MJ beats Wilt in the regular season too. Jordan was just a more consistent all-around scorer when we combine both the regular and postseasons. While Wilt had a more impressive peak value in his scoring, Jordan sustained his dominance longer by winning 3 more scoring titles, and again, finishing with a higher ppg average than Wilt Chamberlain.

Once again, in terms of FG%, Wilt was SIGNIFUCANTLY more efficient. And, BTW, find me even ONE Finals in which Chamberlain shot .455, or .427, or god forbid, .415, as MJ had.

And once again, on significantly lesser volume (when you include the postseason). Comparing FG% between a big man who shoots a lot and a guard who shoots a lot is counter productive anyway (not saying it should be ignored). Credit to Wilt for being able to shot 54% for his career (while Jordan shot 49.7% (51.5% as a Bull) his career).

Interesting. Now, find me one Finals MJ lost. Find me a playoffs series Wilt outscored MJ's best. Find me a Finals series Wilt outshot and scored Jordan's best. I'll wait.

Yes, MJ was a better FT shooter, but here again, in terms of FTs MADE, it was not dramatic. MJ averaged 6.8 MADE per game, in his career, while Wilt was at 5.8.

Here again, another crazy ass post. MJ made more and missed considerably LESS - hence why Chamberlain was so awful and inconsistent from the line. Wilt also missed FAR more FT's than Jordan every season.

Passing? MJ handled the ball considerably more than Chamberlain, and yet, his career APG was 5.3 to Wilt's 4.4.

That's because Jordan could actually handle the ball. He was more fluid and skillfull with his dribbling and handling. Wilt would be a turnover machine doing what Jordan did. Jordan passed for 11 assists in a Finals series. Would Chamberlain be able to do this with far-less possessions? Wilt is also #123 all time in assists per game and #59 all time in total assists. Meanwhile, MJ is #80 in all time assists per game and #35 in all time total assists.

Try again.

How about rebounding?

Wilt has Jordan beat here easily. No argument here.

Defense?

MJ was the first player in history to have a combined 200 steals & 100 blocks. He was also the only player to do it multiple times (Hakeem and Pippen did it later but only in one season). The DPOY wasn't created until the '83 season iirc so who the better defensive player is certainly up for debate (even though I gave Wilt the edge earlier). The league also didn't record blocks and steals during Wilt's career. So for the sake of argument we can call the defense at their positions a tie.

Clutch play? Yes, MJ had many great post-season games ...but so did Chamberlain

MJ has the most known GW's of any player in history. Additionally, MJ's GW/A are 33/58 (57%); Wilt's consistency in the clutch isn't really known (as far as raw-stats go). The only real way to break-down both guys' clutch abilities would be review Wilt's actual consistency. Until you prove otherwise, MJ will still remain MORE clutch than Wilt.

Elimination games? Chamberlain, who supposedly "wilted" in the post-season (YOUR comments BTW)

Once again, for comparisons sake, he definitely "wilted". Jordan was without question the greater playoff performer. The numbers, achievements, accolades and honors back all that up.

Jordan won more titles...on the most STACKED teams in the league, and with WATERED DOWN competition.

Funny, especially looking at the league during the 50's and 60's. The game was still considered "new" and athletes (in a predominant white league) just weren't as good (neither were the players might I add). I hate to use this argument, I really do, but anyone not blind or full of bullshit will tell you players (and athletes) in the 80's and 90's were far and away more talented in contrast to Wilt's ERA. Much of that is why I rank how said players/legends DID (and what they accomplished) during their respective ERA.

I do find it hilarious that you have the gull to talk about Jordan's stacked teams.

HoFers Wilt and Jordan had as teammates in their careers -
Wilt: Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, West, Baylor, and Gail Goodrich
Jordan: Pippen and Rodman

And I already TRASHED the NONSENSE that Chamberlain "wilted" in his post-season play. He took PUTRID rosters much further than MJ did in his early seasons. MJ went 1-9 in his first ten post-season games. It wasn't until Pippen arrived that he won a playoff series.

You didn't "trash" anything. Jordan was easily the better playoff performer. Yes, Wilt "wilted" when you compare his individual playoff dominance to Jordan's. Look at the regular season/postseason averages for a basic comparison. Jordan was the 4th player in history to win a scoring title and an NBA championship the SAME season, which he did all 6 times (leading 6 teams to championships while leading the league in scoring every year). Too add onto that, in '96, he became the 2nd player EVER to sweep the MVP awards (regular season, NBA Finals, All-Star Game) after Reed (Willis). He did it again in 1998, making him the ONLY player to do it multiple times. Again, Wilt never accomplished this feat.

Furthermore, Wilt went 1-7 against Russell despite having rosters that could compete with Russell. Jordan was undefeated in the Finals; Chamberlain lost multiple times (being the favorite a few of those times also). Wilt's play spiraled in the postseason; Jordan's did NOT. Maybe the reason Wilt's teams underachieved was because Wilt faltered under pressure constantly playing worse than the regular season, whereas MJ's play got BETTER when it mattered. Taking everything into account, the overall comparison is close, no doubt, but I believe the way MJ stepped up his level of play in the playoffs is the clear difference between them. That and combined with Jordan's consistent (and sustained) dominance in comparison to Wilt's shorter dominance. Whatever though. It's hysterical that you go on wild tangents only to get your point(s) across. I had to delete some of these posts because they had literally nothing to do with what was being discussed. In all seriousness, you need to quit dumbing down the discussion with your creepy Wilt fetish. It's getting old.

[catch24]

BTW, credit to Bruceblitz for the statistical data. I got a lot of my research from an old statistical breakdown of his (for the two players).

[StarJordan]

you can't go to wilt at the end of the game...wilt chamberlain is a liability on the floor if your team is down by two with clock running down.

[jlauber]

Jordan was also facing better athletes and more (many more) teams. Jordan's team 'could make the playoffs' with a 30-52 record because talent was spread out, hence far more competition. There weren't just 8-10 teams to compete against vs less talented players. The talent pool was spread out during Jordan's ERA- there were simply more (and better) basketball players. Not debatable. Btw, Jordan faced twice as many HoFers in the playoffs.

Jordan was playing in leagues with FAR more teams, and the talent SPREAD OUT. How many HOFers were on the TYPICAL team in the 90's, when MJ was WINNING rings? The talent levels were not CONCENTRATED as they were in almost ANY season in the 60's, and to a lessor extent, the 70's. Let's use ONE season in Wilt's PRIME shall we.

How about his 66-67 season when he LED his team to a 68-13 record, and then an overwhelming title. A TEN team league. How about the 39-42 Hawks. Players like Lou Hudson, who had SEVEN seasons of 20+ ppg (and on high efficiencies too, including two of 27 ppgf): or Bill Bridges, who was capable of 15 rpg seasons' or FIVE-TIME all-star CENTER Zelmo Beatty, who had FIVE seasons of 20+ ppg; or Paul Silas, who was habitually among the rebound leaders in his career; or HOFer Lenny Wilkens, who was one of the premier PG's of his era.

Then there was the 36-45 NY Knicks. A team thatt had SEVEN players average double-figure scoring. Rookie Cazzie Russell, who would go on to become one of the league's best "sixth men", and a player who had a 20+ ppg season later in his career. Or 6-5 GUARD Dick Van Arsdale who would have THREE 20+ ppg seasons in his career, and SIX over 17.8 ppg. Or 6-4 guard Dick Barnett, who had SIX seasons of 17+ ppg in his career, including 17.0 in 66-67. And, then, they had the "twin towers" of HOF bookends 6-9 Willis Reed and Walt Bellamy, and both near their primes. Reed averaged 20.9 ppg , 14.6 rpg, and shot .489; while Bellamy was a 19.0 ppg scorer, a 13.5 rpg rebounder, and shot .521 (more on that later.)

How about the Lakers, who finished 36-45? Think about this...that Laker team had BOTH Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, and in their PRIMES, and they still went 36-45. Those two were the Wade and Lebron counterparts of the 60's, and yet...36-45. They also had Archie Clark, who would average 19.9 ppg the very next season; HOFer Gail Goodrich; 7-0 Mel Counts; and Abdul-Rahman (Walt Hazzard), a player who average 24.0 ppg the very next season.

The Royals? They also finished under .500, at 39-42. Must have been pretty crappy right? All that team had was players like Happy Hairston, who would be among the best rebounding forwards of his era; or Bob Love, who would become one of the premier scorers within a few years. Or Flynn Robinson, who was one of the best pure shooters of his era, and proved he could score 20 ppg later in his career. Or Jon McGlocklin, a 6-5 guard with 25+ ft. range who had seasons of .500 shooting (including a a staggering .535 mark in 70-71.) Oh, and BTW, that team also had a Oscar and Lucas. Oscar merely averaged 30.5 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 10.7 apg, and shot .493 (in a league that shot .441.) And Lucas was at 17.8 ppg, 19.1 rpg, and shot .489.

That is FOUR LOADED teams, in a league with TEN teams, right there. And they were all LOSING teams.

How about the winning teams? The Warriors went 44-37, and they also had SEVEN players average double-figure scoring. All they had were players like Tom Meschery; Fred Hetel, who would average 19 ppg the very next season; Clyde Lee, who was a 15 rpp guy (in limited minutes) a few years later (and who averaged 7.4 rpg in 17 mpg that season); Jeff Mullins, who had several 20 ppg seasons within a couple of seasons; Al Attles; and Paul Neuman. Oh wait...they also had HOFer Rick Barry, who would lead the league in scoring at 35.6 ppg; and 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, who averaged 18.7 ppg and 21.3 rpg that season.

I have mentioned it before, but IMHO, the 60-21 Celtics had the most LOADED roster in NBA history. True, there were other Celtic teams that had more HOFers (their 63-64 team had EIGHT, and their 62-63 team had NINE.) But players 1-10 were exceptional players on that 66-67 team. SIX of them averaged double-figure scoring. Their bench had HOFer Wayne Embry; guard Jim Barnett; 14.1 ppg scorer Larry Siegfried; Don Nelson; and HOFer John Havlicek, and his 21.4 ppg (yes, he was their SIXTH man that season.) Havlicek would have a TON of 20+ ppg seasons, BTW, including two of 28.9 ppg and 27.5 ppg. Their starters were HOFer Satch Sanders (one of the top defensive forwards of his era); HOFer KC Jones (again, considered one of the best defensive players of his era); HOFer Baiey Howell, who 20 ppg on .512 shooting in '67; HOFer Sam Jones, who LED the team in scoring that season, at 22.1 ppg )and who had MUTIPLE seasons of 20+ ppg, including a high of 25.9. AND, of course, they had the great Bill Russell, who averaged 13.3 ppg and 21.0 rpg that season, and as always, was a defensive beast.

Wilt's Sixers were also LOADED, albeit, they were not very deep (a pattern in almost every one of Wilt's seasons.) HOFer Hal Greer; HOFer Billy Cunningham; streak-shooting Wali Jones; PF Luke Jackson, who was 6-9 250 lbs.; Forward Chet Walker, a great all-around player; and a Chamberlain in his absolute, and unstoppable, PRIME. Chamberlain was dominant defensively; led the league in rebounding by a sizeable margin, at 24.2 rpg (in "only" 45 mpg BTW); averaged 24.1 ppg; handed out 7.8 apg (THIRD in the league); and shot a minb-boggling .683, which was .162 ahead of his nearest competitor, Walt Bellamy, and in a league that shot .441 overall.

How about the post-season? Chamberlain faced TEN HOF players in his three rounds (Oscar, Lucas, Barry, Thurmond, and the SIX that Boston had.) And they MURDERED them all. Chamberlain completely CRUSHED Dierking, Russell, and then Thurmond in those series, as well.

So, the teams of the 60's were LOADED. Even the majority of losing teams had SUPERSTAR players.

[jlauber]

He wasn't just better, he was hands down better. Yes, his PPG numbers are dramatically higher than Wilt's. 32 PPG on 49% shooting > 22 PPG on 52% shooting quite easily. By most advanced measures, Jordan was considerably more efficient. MJ was a guard who's efficiency was similar to Wilt on more volume. During the 90's, he out-shot (while making more than half of them) the league comfortably I might add. Jordan scored more on better efficiency than Wilt during postseason-play also (57%TS vs 52%TS).


Again, significantly better. The numbers DONT lie. Chamberlain was NOT "lightyears" above MJ. Jordan, as you mentioned, held a higher career and postseason PPG average. Whether Wilt "could have scored more" is extraneous. It's what happened AND what is; MJ beats Wilt in the regular season too. Jordan was just a more consistent all-around scorer when we combine both the regular and postseasons. While Wilt had a more impressive peak value in his scoring, Jordan sustained his dominance longer by winning 3 more scoring titles, and again, finishing with a higher ppg average than Wilt Chamberlain.

Once again, you are ignoring a PRIME "scoring" Wilt. A Chamberlain who averaged 33 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .510 in his first SIX post-seasons, COMBINED. Or a Wilt that averaged 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518 in his first EIGHT post-seasons...COMBINED.

Now, as for regular season scoring...Chamberlain averaged 39.4 ppg and on .510 shooting, as well as 25 rpg, and 51% shooting (in leagues that shot between .410 to .441)...in his first SEVEN seasons...COMBINED! MJ's greatest scoring season was 37.1 ppg, and on .482 shooting (in a league that shot .480.) So, Wilt's first SEVEN season just blew away MJ's BEST season. Chamberlain was STILL averaging over 34 ppg in his first TEN seasons, which is STILL more MJ's top-10 seasons, combined (about 32-33 ppg.) And, as I have already documented, it was Wilt's COACHES who had him cut back his scoring in the last three years of those first ten seasons, or Wilt would probably have been around 36-37 ppg or so, in those ten seasons...COMBINED.

Jordan holds the post-season scoring records, but Chamberlain is LIGHT-YEARS ahead of MJ in regular season scoring marks. 6-0 edge in 70+ point games; a 32-4 edge in 60+ games; 118-39 margin in 50+ point games; and a 271-173 edge in 40+ point games. BTW, Wilt also had EIGHT 60+ point games AFTER the NBA widened the lane...and again, BTW, his FG% steadily went UP after the widening of the lane...as well as having seasons of 34.7 ppg (including 38.9 ppg at the half-point in the 64-65 season) and 33.5 ppg (on .540 shooting in a league that shot .433.) AFTER the widening of the lane. The widening of the lane had NO effect on Chamberlain, but rather, it was his COACHES decisions that dramatically affected his shooting and scoring. He even posted TWO 60+ point games in his 68-69 season, in a year in which the NBA averaged 112 ppg, and in a season in which he only averaged 13.6 FGAs per game. And, his 60+ point games were usually on incredible efficiences, as well...including FOUR of over 70%, and one of .829 (29-35.)

And, while Wilt's scoring declined his post-season play, again, only 52 of his 160 post-season games, came in his "scoring" season. He STILL had FOUR post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He had MANY 30+ series, too, including THREE of 37, 37, and 39 ppg. He aklso had FOUR 50+ point games (which is SECOND only to MJ's eight.) So, while MJ did score more in the post-season, it was NOT a sizeable margin. The fact was, Had Wilt simply shot more, he would have scored more. We already KNOW that. You can ask his COACHES why he didn't score more from his '67 season until his last season in '73.

[jlauber]

That's because Jordan could actually handle the ball. He was more fluid and skillfull with his dribbling and handling. Wilt would be a turnover machine doing what Jordan did. Jordan passed for 11 assists in a Finals series. Would Chamberlain be able to do this with far-less possessions? Wilt is also #123 all time in assists per game and #59 all time in total assists. Meanwhile, MJ is #80 in all time assists per game and #35 in all time total assists.

Try again.

How many TRIPLE-DOUBLE post-season series did MJ have? Chamberlain had TWO, and in the same post-season...including 19 in one game. How many post-seasons did MJ average 9.2 apg in?

How many assist titles did MJ win? Or come in THIRD? How many 20-20-20 games did MJ have (don't bother looking, he didn't have ANY, and ONLY Chamberlain accomplished that feat.) And did MJ have a triple-double game like Wilt's 53-32-14 game (on 24-29 shooting BTW) in '68?

I find it fascinating that Chamberlain, a CENTER, and a player who scored and shot so much in the first half of his career, could still be so CLOSE to MJ in the assist department (and again, assists were much more difficult to come by in the Wilt era.)

MJ was the first player in history to have a combined 200 steals & 100 blocks. He was also the only player to do it multiple times (Hakeem and Pippen did it later but only in one season). The DPOY wasn't created until the '83 season iirc so who the better defensive player is certainly up for debate (even though I gave Wilt the edge earlier). The league also didn't record blocks and steals during Wilt's career. So for the sake of argument we can call the defense at their positions a tie.

Except, Chamberlain played the CENTER position, which only allows ONE player to be first-team all-defense (and of course, that award didn't even come into play until very late in Wilt's career... and BTW, Wilt was voted first-team all-defense in his LAST two seasons.) In fact, had DPOY existed back then, Chamberlain surely would have won it in '72 (and perhaps even in '73.) And since you brought up advanced stats, MJ had two seasons of 6.2 and 6.1 Defensive Win shares...while Chamberlain had EIGHT seasons better than MJ's BEST, including two of over TEN (10.6 and 10.7.) AND, even using WIN-SHARES, Chamberlain's career mark is considerably better, and in fact, he had SIX seasons of at least 20.4 (and FIVE above it, with a high of 25.0), and MJ's HIGH was 20.4.

[jlauber]

MJ has the most known GW's of any player in history. Additionally, MJ's GW/A are 33/58 (57%); Wilt's consistency in the clutch isn't really known (as far as raw-stats go). The only real way to break-down both guys' clutch abilities would be review Wilt's actual consistency. Until you prove otherwise, MJ will still remain MORE clutch than Wilt.

So ONLY Game-winning shots classify as "clutch?" How about game-winning blocks (Wilt had at least two in his post-season games.) Or defensive stops. Or holding a PRIME Kareem to .457 shooting in one playoff series, in a season in which he shot .574 (including holding Kareem to .414 over the last FOUR games of that series.)

Once again, how about Wilt's 56-35 game in a game five of a best-of-series? Or his MANY other "elimination" games, which I listed previously?

Where were MJ's 30-20 post-seasons? Chamberlain had FOUR of 30+ ppg and 25 rpg. Where were MJ's 25-20 post-seasons? Chamberlain had SIX. And where were Jordan's 20-20 post-seasons? Chamberlain had EIGHT.

Regular season 30-20 seasons? Wilt with a 7-0 edge. 30-25 seasons? Chamberlain with a 3-0 edge. 40-20 seasons? Chamberlain holds a 2-0 margin. 20-20 seasons? Wilt with a 10-0 edge.

And do you want me to list his margins in 50-40, 40-40, 40-30, and 30-30 games? He literally had HUNDREDS of 30-30 games (103 to be exact...out of the entire total of 131 in NBA history.)

Once again, for comparisons sake, he definitely "wilted". Jordan was without question the greater playoff performer. The numbers, achievements, accolades and honors back all that up.

Once again, if your definition of "wilting" is a player that posted FOUR 30-25 entire post-seasons, and SIX of 28+ 25 rpg; as well as averaging 33-27 .510 in his SIX "scoring" seasons (and once again, he also had a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and shot .528...and didn't make the playoffs.)

And NO, Jordan was NOT unquestionably the better playoff performer. He scored more, and his TEAM's won more (more on that later.)

Funny, especially looking at the league during the 50's and 60's. The game was still considered "new" and athletes (in a predominant white league) just weren't as good (neither were the players might I add). I hate to use this argument, I really do, but anyone not blind or full of bullshit will tell you players (and athletes) in the 80's and 90's were far and away more talented in contrast to Wilt's ERA. Much of that is why I rank how said players/legends DID (and what they accomplished) during their respective ERA.

I do find it hilarious that you have the gull to talk about Jordan's stacked teams.

HoFers Wilt and Jordan had as teammates in their careers -
Wilt: Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, West, Baylor, and Gail Goodrich
Jordan: Pippen and Rodman

First of all, Wilt played from the '60 season thru the '73 season. Secondly, as we already KNOW, a way past his prime Chamberlain held a statistically PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting in their 28 H2H games. And yet, a 38 year old Kareem could averaged 33 ppg on .634 shooting against a prime Hakeem. AND, in the same season in which he hung TWO 40+ poing games of Hakeem, the old Kareem also outscored Ewing in one game, 40-9 (while holding Ewing to 3-17 shooting.) My god, a 38 year old-thru a 41 year-old Kareem averaged over 20 ppg and on .599 shooting in thosed four seasons against a prime Hakeem.

And, Chamberlain was not the only one, either. Thurmond probably did an even better job against Kareem. With the data I have seen, I doubt Jabbar even shot 45% against Nate in their 50+ H2H games. And even 6-9 Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in a game seven of the Finals.

You mentioned Wilt's HOF teammates. He played ONE full season with Baylor. He played THREE full seasons with West. He played THREE full seasons with Goodrich. He played THREE full seasons with Greer. He played THREE full seasons with Cunningham (and Cunningham missed a crucial ECF's in '68 with a broken wrist BTW.) He played THREE full seasons with Arizin. And, he played THREE seasons with Gola (who is arguably among the worst HOFers ever BTW.) 19 seasons with a HOF teammate...and NONE over THREE years.

Now, Russell played with between FOUR to EIGHT HOF teammates EVERY season in the Wilt-era...with the AVERAGE being over SIX. And, he played with the majority of those teammates for between 5-10 years.

AND, MJ and Pippen played together for TEN seasons (and Rodman joined them for THREE.)

And Chamberlain was routinely facing 8-10 or more HOF players in almost EVERY post-season (except '61.) Jordan's teams were SLAUGHTERED by Bird's HOF-laden Celtic teams...while Wilt lost two game sevens, by two and one point, against Russell's Celtics that had HUGE margins in talent.

Give me a list of team's that Jordan faced, and BEAT, in the post-season, that had as many as FOUR HOFers. Hell, he seldom even faced as many as THREE (the 89-90 Pistons had three.) Two was the norm.

BTW, MJ won exactly ONE playoff GAME withOUT Pippen. And, as I pointed out previously, the Bulls roster was able to go 55-27 (down from 57-25 the year before) WITHOUT MJ, in the middle of MJ's run of six rings. Hell, they even went 6-4 in that post-season, and lost a close seven game series against the Knicks, who would lose a close seven game series to the eventual champion Rockets...all while replacing MJ with a part-time Kukoc and a part-time Pete Myers.

[N0Skillz]

A drunken post by a man who was just tired of seeing Wilts name under Jordan.

[jlauber]

You didn't "trash" anything. Jordan was easily the better playoff performer. Yes, Wilt "wilted" when you compare his individual playoff dominance to Jordan's. Look at the regular season/postseason averages for a basic comparison. Jordan was the 4th player in history to win a scoring title and an NBA championship the SAME season, which he did all 6 times (leading 6 teams to championships while leading the league in scoring every year). Too add onto that, in '96, he became the 2nd player EVER to sweep the MVP awards (regular season, NBA Finals, All-Star Game) after Reed (Willis). He did it again in 1998, making him the ONLY player to do it multiple times. Again, Wilt never accomplished this feat.

Furthermore, Wilt went 1-7 against Russell despite having rosters that could compete with Russell. Jordan was undefeated in the Finals; Chamberlain lost multiple times (being the favorite a few of those times also). Wilt's play spiraled in the postseason; Jordan's did NOT. Maybe the reason Wilt's teams underachieved was because Wilt faltered under pressure constantly playing worse than the regular season, whereas MJ's play got BETTER when it mattered. Taking everything into account, the overall comparison is close, no doubt, but I believe the way MJ stepped up his level of play in the playoffs is the clear difference between them. That and combined with Jordan's consistent (and sustained) dominance in comparison to Wilt's shorter dominance. Whatever though. It's hysterical that you go on wild tangents only to get your point(s) across. I had to delete some of these posts because they had literally nothing to do with what was being discussed. In all seriousness, you need to quit dumbing down the discussion with your creepy Wilt fetish. It's getting old.

ONE MORE TIME...Chamberlain DOMINATED in his post-seasons. And he routinely outscored, outrebounded, and outshot his opposing centers by HUGE margins in the vast majority of them (in fact he was never outrebounded in his 29 post-season series.)

Russell and Wilt played in the league together for TEN seasons, and Russell enjoyed an edge in HOFers in EVERU single one of them, as well as having much deeper benches. And, I would say that Russell's teams were only under-dogs to Wilt in the last three. One of which Wilt was benched by his idiotic coach in the last five minutes of a game seven, two-point loss; another in which Chamberlain's roster was DECIMATED by injuries; and in the other, Wilt led his team to a crushing rout of the eight-time defending champions.

Wilt's play "spiraled" in his post-season play to 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, and on .522 shooting, AND, in the first eight post-seasons, of his 13, he was at 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, .4.8 apg, .518 shooting (in leagues that averaged about .430 shooting), and probably some 8+ blocks per game.

As for my "fetish" on Wilt...I can say the same crap about you and MJ. MJ was NOT a god. He played on FIVE losing teams. Without Pippen he won ONE playoff game. He had three Finals in a row in which he shot .455, .427, and even a deplorable .415. He also had entire post-seasons of shooting .459, .456, .436 and even .417, and in leagues that shot far higher than those that Wilt played in.

He was fortunate enough to play on LOADED rosters in the 90's, and in watered-down leagues.

[EricForman]

BTW, MJ won exactly ONE playoff GAME withOUT Pippen. And, as I pointed out previously, the Bulls roster was able to go 55-27 (down from 57-25 the year before) WITHOUT MJ, in the middle of MJ's run of six rings. Hell, they even went 6-4 in that post-season, and lost a close seven game series against the Knicks, who would lose a close seven game series to the eventual champion Rockets...all while replacing MJ with a part-time Kukoc and a part-time Pete Myers.

Lauber, please don't use this fallacy-filled twisted logic that Kobe-homers use. You sorta linked the "Jordan has only won one playoff game without Pippen" comment with "Pippen won 55 games and almost won title" AS IF THEY WERE RELATED TO ONE ANOTHER and somehow paints a picture of how teams do without Jordan and without Pippen.

That 55-game winning cast that Pip ran with came nearly TEN YEARS after the "cast that Jordan couldn't win with" before Pippen.

Kobe-fans use that twisted logic to say that Pip could win without Jordan but not the other way around. IGNORING the fact that the Bull's 3-12 roster in 1994 was significantly better than the Bull's 3-12 roster in, say, 1987.

Meaning, had Jordan ran with the 94 cast, without Pippen, he surely would have won "playoff series" and had Pippen ran with Jordan's cast, in, say, 85 or 87, the Bulls surely wouldn't have fared any better than what Jordan did.

Also, I've pointed out many times before the holes in the 94 Bulls argument. Jordan detractors like to play a bunch of "WHAT IFS" and talk like the Bulls were one bad call away from the championship. When in reality, they lost in the second round.

You know who's lost in the second round in previous years? 2011 Atlanta Hawks. 2007 Golden State Warriors. 2009 Houston Rockets.

The 94 Bulls acheived the same damn result those teams did, which makes them just a solid team, nothing more. 93 team won the championship, 94 team lost in second round. HUGE difference.

But of course, Jordan detractors will always use a bunch of "what ifs", twisted-logic, and exaggerations to pretend like that 94 team BARELY dropped off without Jordan.

[jlauber]

Great post shaq. And to add to this. Wilt took almost 1800 shots that year he avg 50ppg. The next closets guy took about half that many shots. Since were trying to adjust over eras, is wilt still gonna be able to take damn near twice as many shots as the next closest pplayer? Cuz if were making everything relative and taking into consideration what wil did vs the players he played against and the league, we must extrapolate everything. Wilts FG attempt must alomst double the number 2 guy in the league for 87 which would be about 4000 shots. That ain't gonna happen.

Wilt was ahead of his time. But he did get by on being the most dominant player in the league. Someone posted a few clips of wilt in a game and to be honest, I've seen 8th grade players with more fundamentals. But how he played in the 60s and how the game is played now has evolved so much.

This is utter NONSENSE. Chamberlain took 3159 FGAs in his 61-62 season. Walt Bellamy, who finished 19 ppg behind Chamberlain, took 1875, and Bob Pettit, who averaged 31.1 ppg took 1928 (or 1231 less shots.)

Chamberlain also led the NBA in scoring the very next season, averaging 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting, while taking 2770 shots. Baylor finished a distant second at 34.0 ppg, on .453 shooting, while taking 2273 shots...or 497 less shots. For example, in MJ's '87 season, he took 2279 FGAs, and Alex English was next with 1920 (or 359 less.)

[bond10]

LOL, another thread by a bunch of reluctant kids who won't accept Jordan as the GOAT.

[jlauber]

Lauber, please don't use this fallacy-filled twisted logic that Kobe-homers use. You sorta linked the "Jordan has only won one playoff game without Pippen" comment with "Pippen won 55 games and almost won title" AS IF THEY WERE RELATED TO ONE ANOTHER and somehow paints a picture of how teams do without Jordan and without Pippen.

That 55-game winning cast that Pip ran with came nearly TEN YEARS after the "cast that Jordan couldn't win with" before Pippen.

Kobe-fans use that twisted logic to say that Pip could win without Jordan but not the other way around. IGNORING the fact that the Bull's 3-12 roster in 1994 was significantly better than the Bull's 3-12 roster in, say, 1987.

Meaning, had Jordan ran with the 94 cast, without Pippen, he surely would have won "playoff series" and had Pippen ran with Jordan's cast, in, say, 85 or 87, the Bulls surely wouldn't have fared any better than what Jordan did.

Also, I've pointed out many times before the holes in the 94 Bulls argument. Jordan detractors like to play a bunch of "WHAT IFS" and talk like the Bulls were one bad call away from the championship. When in reality, they lost in the second round.

You know who's lost in the second round in previous years? 2011 Atlanta Hawks. 2007 Golden State Warriors. 2009 Houston Rockets.

The 94 Bulls acheived the same damn result those teams did, which makes them just a solid team, nothing more. 93 team won the championship, 94 team lost in second round. HUGE difference.

But of course, Jordan detractors will always use a bunch of "what ifs", twisted-logic, and exaggerations to pretend like that 94 team BARELY dropped off without Jordan.

Good post.

I was actually merely responding to those that claim that Chamberlain played on stacked teams, and "only" won two titles. Wilt played on very good rosters the last HALF of his career, and won those two titles. Not only that, but once again, take a look at the COMPETITION. Rosters filled with HOFers and potential 20 ppg scorers. And I have covered the other teams that did not win titles in that span many times. No player was "snake-bit" as often as Chamberlain was. I know that excuses are for losers, but the man truly came within an eyelash of winning up to FIVE more titles (and two of them were with pathetic rosters.) Injuries(to MULTIPLE teammates, including himself), poor play by teammates, miracle shots by opposing players, horrible coaching, bungled plays at the worst possible time, poor officiating...and in some cases, SEVERAL of those events occurred in the same series or post-season.

And this NONSENSE that Chamberlain "wilted" in the post-season. How many other NBA players had FOUR 30+ ppg, 25 rpg entire post-seasons? Or SIX 28-25 post-seasons? And while there are a FEW with multiple 30 ppg post-seasons, or a couple of 35+ ppg post-seasons, or playoff series of 37, 37, and 39 ppg...they are are VERY few. Jordan had EIGHT 50+ point post-season games. Who is next? Chamberlain with FOUR. Along with MULTIPLE 40-30 games, and even TWO of 56-35 and 50-35 and in "elimination games" no less. EIGHT 20-20 post-seasons. And in ALL 13 of his post-seasons he averaged at LEAST 20.2 rpg, with highs of 29.1 and 30.2 (my god, he even averaged 22.5 over 17 playoff games in his very LAST post-season.) And he was shooting WAY over the league average in doing so.

And those that claim that Chamberlain declined in his post-season play NEVER bring up the fact that Wilt faced a HOF center in TWO-THIRDS of those post-season series. Hell, he faced RUSSELL in 49 of his 160 post-season games...or nearly ONE-THIRD of them. Most intelligent basketball historians acknowledge that Russell was the game's greatest defensive player, and here was Chamberlain hanging FOUR post-seasons of over 30+ ppg on him, including one of 30 ppg and 31 rpg, and covering a seven game series.

Nor do the "anti-Wilt" clan ever bring up the fact that 108 of Chamberlain's 160 playoff games came after his "scoring" seasons. Nor do they bring up the fact that Chamberlain MISSED the playoffs in his 62-63 season, in a year in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting. And only a few will bring up that Chamberlain averaged 33 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .510 (in leagues that averaged about .430 shooting) in his first SIX post-seasons...COMBINED! ShaqAttack brought up Wilt's "decline" in his first EIGHT post-seasons... in which Chamberlain averaged 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518 (in leagues that probably averaged about .435 shooting over that span)...COMBINED. Give me a list of players who had ONE post-season where they averaged 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518....much less averaging those numbers over the course of EIGHT straight post-seasons.

And while MJ was a better post-season scorer, he was not "significantly" higher than a PRIME Chamberlain. And he most certainly wasn't as efficient...especially considering that MJ played nearly half of his career in leagues that shot between .485 and .492, and over the course of his ENTIRE career, was probably around .470...while Wilt played in leagues that shot from .410 to .456 and averaged about .440.

And, even though MJ has a razor-thin edge in career regular season scoring, it is truly laughable that anyone would suggest that MJ was a better scorer. One only needs to take a look at the RECORD BOOK to see who the REAL greatest scorer of all-time was. Page-after-page of SCORING records. And had Chamberlain been a true BALL-HOG, like MJ was his ENTIRE career, he most certainly could have put the career scoring average WAY beyond reach. Instead, he did whatever his COACHES asked him do (even the several INCOMPETENT ones), and sacrificed his scoring.

My intent here is not to disparage MJ's legacy, although I get frustrated to the point of having to make some pretty hard jabs, but to point out that those that rank Chamberlain over MJ, or Russell, have a solid case. Yes, you can argue that both were bigger "winners", in which case then Russell is the hands-down G.O.A.T., but as I have pointed out, Chamberlain was not only shackled with putrid rosters for half of his career, he was also battling HOF-laden teams his ENTIRE career. And he was playing BRILLIANTLY in the process.

[D-Wade316]

A drunken post by a man who was just tired of seeing Wilts name under Jordan.

You are stupid. Jordan is GOAT, BUT ARGUABLY. You fools have nothing to offer here in this forum but trolling. If you post, make sure that you yourself won't look stupid to others.