Prime Kobe Bryant vs. Prime LeBron James

[Inactive]

So Wilt>MJ??...right?

That's at least debatable. Take rules, pacing, and post season performances into account. Then figure out how you want to weigh perceived intangible qualities, level of competition in respective eras, etc. Much more interesting than saying "Player x better, because of <insert unquantifiable, or arbitrary reason>, and anyone who disagrees is stupid".

[knightfall88]

He only played 1 series in '06 and '07, against the mighty Suns D. So let's look just focus on '08, where he did have an awful series.

Where in 08 did he have a bad series? He destroyed the nuggets, jazz and spurs in a year where almost every Western conference team had claim to be the best team in the West, did that without their starting center and with Gasol only recently added to the roster. Then he got hammered in the finals by the Celtics team of Pierce, Garnett, Allen at their absolute prime together.

I ask this often, when has lebron beaten a 50+ team? I ask this every post season during his peak, he has just abusing teams that are an absolute joke like most of the bottom 5 in the east were at the time. I mean watching the losses, he had slim chance of beating Orlando or Boston in those years so its not like he lost it in a few plays, he was absolutely dominated by those teams despite what the result says and the stats he put up. And you might want to bring up the detroit team he destroyed, they were on the way out and really they were only where they were because they were in the east.

[magnax1]

LeBron's 3 truly bad series' are '07 Finals, '08 ECS and '11 Finals. So I wouldn't call '09 an anomaly. He had fairly solid series' in '06 and '10.



He only played 1 series in '06 and '07, against the mighty Suns D. So let's just focus on '08, where he did have one awful series.

He did not have an awful series on the same scale of Lebron's 2 series vs Boston, Mavs in 11, Spurs in 07, and to a lesser extent vs the pistons in 07. I know you could say Lebron's series vs Boston in 10 wasn't that bad, but the stats don't tell the story. Especially in that last game which ends up looking dominant on paper, but nobody would say it was even an average game for him.

[ShaqAttack3234]

IMO, unless you're comparing a great defender to a poor one, defense should NEVER be the tipping point between 2 perimeter players. They simply do not have a significant enough impact on the game, and are easily replaceable. MJ's the best perimeter defender I've ever seen, but Chicago didn't a miss a beat without him in '94 and '95. LeBron supposedly had his best defensive season as a Heat, yet Miami's defensive ranking was unchanged from the prior year. So whatever defensive edge '11 LeBron has over his '08 self, it just isn't significant to materialize on the basketball court.

Well, Miami's defensive rating did improve a bit, though the difference isn't that big going from a 104.1 defensive rating in 2010(6th best) to 103.5(5th best). But they also lost Jermaine O'Neal who had a solid season in 2010 with Miami.

Defense isn't the only tipping point either for me. Like I said, I prefer his skills in 2011 a lot as well.

I don't know if '11 LeBron would've fared any better against the '08 Celtics. Especially with that cast.

I have a hard time seeing him shooting that poorly.

He shot unbelievably poorly outside of games 5 and 7, and I was shocked at how poorly he played in the first 2 games at the time(I never imagined he'd play that poorly after such a dominant season).

Game 1- 12/9/9, 10 TO, 2/18 FG, 0/6 3P, 8/10 FT
Game 2- 21/5/6, 7 TO, 6/24 FG, 0/4 3P, 9/13 FT
Game 3- 21/5/8, 2 TO, 5/16 FG, 3/5 3P, 8/12 FT
Game 4- 21/6/13, 4 TO, 7/20 FG, 2/5 3P, 5/8 FT
Game 5- 35/3/5, 4 TO, 12/25 FG, 0/5 3P, 11/13 FT
Game 6- 32/12/6, 8 TO, 9/23 FG, 1/3 3P, 13/15 FT
Game 7- 45/5/6, 2 TO, 14/29 FG, 3/11 3P, 14/19 FT

He did get better as the series went on and to his credit really came to play in game 7 and gave his team a chance to win that game. In fact, during the game, I was really starting to believe that he'd shock me again like he did the previous year vs Detroit.

I'll concede that there's a case for '08 Lebron over '11 Lebron, especially when you consider that his team was 0-7 without him and 45-30 with him. I actually find it kind of underrated in that regard when people always talk about Wade in '09, Kobe in '06 and '07 and T-Mac in '03 carrying bad teams. People forget about the early season holdouts from Varejao and Pavlovic as well as the midseason adjustment period due to the trades(Hughes really was terrible by that point as well and Gooden had to play way more minutes early than you'd want him to).

[Inactive]

I ask this often, when has lebron beaten a 50+ team? I ask this every post season during his peak, he has just abusing teams that are an absolute joke like most of the bottom 5 in the east were at the time. I mean watching the losses, he had slim chance of beating Orlando or Boston in those years so its not like he lost it in a few plays, he was absolutely dominated by those teams despite what the result says and the stats he put up. And you might want to bring up the detroit team he destroyed, they were on the way out and really they were only where they were because they were in the east.

What? That series was extremely close. 3-4 plays, or calls in the entire series could've tipped it one way, or the other. In game 1 ORL won by 1, game 2 CLE won by 1(Lebron's 3 point buzzer beater), game 4 ORL won by 2. ORL only won game 3, and 6 convincingly, and CLE only won game 5 convincingly.

[Indian guy]

He did not have an awful series on the same scale of Lebron's 2 series vs Boston, Mavs in 11, Spurs in 07, and to a lesser extent vs the pistons in 07.

I thought we were only comparing prime-to-prime? You can't pick all of LeBron's bad series' and compare 'em to Kobe's 3 best years. If we take both players' 3 best years, then they both have only 1 bad series.

I know you could say Lebron's series vs Boston in 10 wasn't that bad

That series only gets a bad name because of 1 game(which suddenly became 3 games because Dan Gilbert yapped). It's completely overblown. In reality, he was actually more productive than Kobe was against Boston in the Finals.

[All Net]

No doubt about it.

Here is how he started in 2009-2010 before the injuries started becoming a big problem.

Kobe pre-injuries
29.9 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, 2 spg, 48.2%, 84.9 FT%, 34 games

Kobe post-injuries
24.4 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 5.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 43.1 FG%, 77.6 FT%, 39 games

The difference is huge, and it even reflects in his FT%. And almost an equal sample size of games as well.

Good to see actually see the stats as good proof.

Was that scrub from the Wolves I think that caused it.

[magnax1]

I thought we were only comparing prime-to-prime? You can't pick all of LeBron's bad series' and compare 'em to Kobe's 3 best years. If we take both players' 3 best years, then they both have only 1 bad series.

I was just pointing out how consistently it happened through out his career.

That series only gets a bad name because of 1 game(which suddenly became 3 games because Dan Gilbert yapped). It's completely overblown. In reality, he was actually more productive than Kobe was against Boston in the Finals.

It did not suddenly become three games. Since game 4 people have always talked about how he suddenly just stopped playing well in the 10 Boston series. Though a lot of people thought game 4 was a fluke until he took a dump in game 5. In reality, he was definitely not as good as Kobe against Boston. Statistically you could say he was, but in reality he just didn't make an impact after the third game.

[knightfall88]

What? That series was extremely close. 3-4 plays, or calls in the entire series could've tipped it one way, or the other. In game 1 ORL won by 1, game 2 CLE won by 1(Lebron's 3 point buzzer beater), game 4 ORL won by 2. ORL only won game 3, and 6 convincingly, and CLE only won game 5 convincingly.

Well I saw it differently. I saw Orlando dominating Cleveland in every facet of the game and with Lebron's superstar treatment keeping them looking close. But really Orlando was a superior team in every way.

[Boston C's]

2 different situations;

1. If their team full of scrubs, LeBron's numbers, impact, number of wins and playoffs would be the greater one.

2. If their team is a well-balanced stacked team, Kobe would be the greater one.

I agree with this

[Boston C's]

Which game would that be?

According to this there is not a single game Iverson scored 0 points against Kobe and the Lakers in his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=iversal01

Maybe you meant the game Kobe scored 0 points, huh?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...612290LAL.html

Zay just got owned

[amfirst]

Kobe for for sures. LeBron sucked big time against the Spurs. A team Kobe would usually destroy.

Prob is that Kobe's prime was spent with a bunch of nobodies. LeBron at least had rebounders, defenders, and shooters to punish the defense. Kobe didn't have this in his prime and pretty much had to carry the offensive load.

LeBron got a glimpse of what Kobe went through when his team mates got shut down by the Spurs. He couldn't carry the offensive load like Kobe.

[Inactive]

Well I saw it differently. I saw Orlando dominating Cleveland in every facet of the game and with Lebron's superstar treatment keeping them looking close. But really Orlando was a superior team in every way.

I guess that should tell you, that your perceptions, and/or memories aren't very reliable. The fact is, that 3 out of six games came down to a single possession. Doesn't get much closer than that.

[Friday]

I'd take prime Iverson and McGrady over both of them any day.

[Asukal]

Lebron's prime is not over yet, he is only 26.

That said, taking Lebron's current best and Kobe's I'd still take Kobe over Lebron for now. Kobe has more options offensively than Lebron, Lebron has more athleticism but Kobe in his prime is also very athletic. Its a close call but I give it to Kobe.