Why do some People call MJ the greatest defensive player ever?

[Smoke117]

He isnt even top ten. He is barely top ten as a wing defender.

He's definitely not top 10 all time. Top 10 as a wing defender? Absolutely. I have him 2nd after Pippen myself. Having said that...would I consider even Pippen top 10 ALL TIME? Probably not. The great defensive big man are just going to have more of an impact and a top 10 list is going to be full of Centers. Having said that it takes away nothing from Scottie as he is the only non C or PF to truly anchor a top notch defensive team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.

No, we're basing it on having watched him play and having a solid understanding of what exactly comprises defensive impact.

Only Pippen is arguable and probably superior. None of the others are. Again, if we're talking STRICTLY man-to-man defense, then yes, some of those guys are comparable and possibly superior (certainly more consistent given that most were specialists). But in terms of overall defensive impact on games - changing the entire complexion of games defensively - none of them even approach Jordan except for Pippen and possibly Payton. The rest of their team/help defense isn't nearly good enough to be in the discussion with Jordan. Learn the game.

[97 bulls]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.

Are you talking about man defense? Or defense as a whole? There more involved in being an all-time great defender than just man defense. And if your talking as a whole, take out cooper, bowen, artest, hell all of them. Except pippen and jordan. All the guys you mentioend were great man defenders but not much else.

[juju151111]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.

Lol MJ defense is not only based around stats. With the huge offensive load MJ still top 5 Perimeter defense ever. MJ was Dpoty and was assign to players like Isaiah,magic,clyde,hardaway,miller in playoff situation and either shut their ass down or made reduced their impact.

Lol at wat MJ did to Isaiah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARzR8_S0mbY
Watch the 1993 knicks series to see MJ going nut on defense especially game 5.
A few highlights of MJ defensive awareness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ZrmsSUfsI In fact Mj was voted by the coaches has the best defender in 1993. Not the media the ****ing coaches.2nd 3 peat MJ took less assignments because of stamina but he still shitted on people. Guarding PGs like its a joke at 34 years old http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0lx-...98D20B18FDB3B3

[andgar923]

Bowen
PIPPEN
Payton
Dumars
Moncrief
Cooper
I have them all ranked over Jordan. Forget stats.
Never got to see Frazier play, so can't comment on him.
Then there are players who have a good case over him.
Artest
Robertson
DJ
You guys are basing his defense on stats.

The stats/accolades are only provided to help support our argument, not as THE main argument/reason.

[Big#50]

Are you talking about man defense? Or defense as a whole? There more involved in being an all-time great defender than just man defense. And if your talking as a whole, take out cooper, bowen, artest, hell all of them. Except pippen and jordan. All the guys you mentioend were great man defenders but not much else.

So if Bowen makes Dirk, Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade have a sub par game, that doesn't disrupt game plans? Wouldn't that **** up an entire offense? I get it, you only disrupt game plans if you get a steal or a block. You only disrupt an offense if you gamble on the passing lanes. GTFO...Jordan fans need to go jack off to Space Jam.

[B-Low]

NBA DPOY:MJ 1, Pippen ZERO, Kobe ZERO, Lebron ZERO, Wade ZERO, Drexler ZERO

one of the great injustices in NBA history honestly

[Big#50]

BTW Jordan's whole defense relied on hand checking.

[gengiskhan]

one of the great injustices in NBA history honestly

agreed sorta

BUT

as a perimeter defender Bar has been set very high by '80s MJ with blk shots & Steals for single season.

Pippen barelly made it to 100 blk shots in 1994. Hakeem rightly won DPOY that year with the supporting cast he had. Hakeem was DA BEST. Pippen was always 2nd with or without MJ on Bulls.

The reason why MJ won DPOY & set the perimeter bar too high:

1988: 100+ blks /+ 250+ steals (even better than 1987)

1988: Steals leader with 3.18 SPG.

& top of that, this guys was averaging 36 ppgs in 2 season.

1994 or 1995 Pippen didnt come close to 1988 MJ stats perimeter defense wise.

or else, 1994 or 1995, pippen would've edge Hakeem or D'Rob for DPOY.

[andgar923]

BTW Jordan's whole defense relied on hand checking.

Exactly!

[gengiskhan]

BTW Jordan's whole defense relied on hand checking.

wrong.

thats only partly true.

He played gambling anticipation defense ( always looking for steal in the passing lane

He also played lot of weak side defense (tons of weak side block shots)

[97 bulls]

So if Bowen makes Dirk, Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade have a sub par game, that doesn't disrupt game plans? Wouldn't that **** up an entire offense? I get it, you only disrupt game plans if you get a steal or a block. You only disrupt an offense if you gamble on the passing lanes. GTFO...Jordan fans need to go jack off to Space Jam.

Your right. Being able to take the opposing teams best player is invaluable. But the point is jordan and pippen did it along with being fantastic help defenders, man defenders, rebounders (for their positions), defend multiple positions, defend the post, playing passing lanes, block shots, shutting down the opposition best wing scorers, playing trap defense, full court press. There wasn't anything jordan and pippen couldn't do on defense. Rodman is a great defender cuz he could literally defend 1-5 effectively

[Dave3]

So if Bowen makes Dirk, Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade have a sub par game, that doesn't disrupt game plans? Wouldn't that **** up an entire offense? I get it, you only disrupt game plans if you get a steal or a block. You only disrupt an offense if you gamble on the passing lanes. GTFO...Jordan fans need to go jack off to Space Jam.

Kobe averages 26 ppg on 43% FG against Bowen. Slightly above his career average in volume, and slightly below in efficiency. This is also against the team defense of the Spurs. Not a very big difference at all.

LeBron averages 29 ppg and 50% FG against Bowen. Slightly above both his averages. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=jamesle01)

Dirk averages 24 ppg on 45% (though he was guarded by Duncan more than Bowen) but you mentioned him. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=nowitdi01)

Chris Paul averages 19 ppg on 46%. This is also including his rookie/sophomore seasons, so this is technically still above his career average in volume, and slightly below in efficiency.

Finally, Wade averages 26 ppg on 46% FG.

The same pattern for every player (except LeBron)? Higher volume than their career averages, and slight dip in efficiency (probably from having to play against the Spurs, teammates aren't as good and thus needed to show up).

But let me guess, in spite of all these stats showing the players still did their stuff, you're going to tell me "stats don't matter"

So accolades (DPOY awards and first team selections) don't matter, the praise from peers regarding defense don't matter, and stats don't matter. What does then? Only your opinion?

[Sarcastic]

one of the great injustices in NBA history honestly

Which year would you have given it to him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Def...the_Year_Award

1987

[cteach111]

honestly, no one should really care for DPOY, NBA 1st awards. Actually pretty much all awards should be ignored for the most part. They're worthless.

It's not like they make a player any better. Let your eyes judge that.