The Trouble with Data and Statistics

[jlauber]

Exposing Wilts defense...or lack of it, to be more accurate. The 1962 Sixers allowed 122.7 ppg...LAST in the nba....Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg that yr; 1963 warriors allowed 120.6 ppg...LAST in the nba...Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg that yr. In Wilts 2 highest scoring yrs, his teams were DEAD LAST in ppg allowed

My question is this: was Wilt spiking blocked shots into the opponents basket? Allowing 122.7 ppg and 120.6 ppg is not exactly shut-down defense considering stat-boy Wilt knew they didnt keep individual defensive stats, you know, where his priorities were....

DEFENSIVE WIN-SHARES...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html

(BTW, that last link is cumulative...so Wilt's average per season was actually SECOND all-time.)

[97 bulls]

W

What did I say that was wrong? They are very similar statistically.

[97 bulls]

Exposing Wilts defense...or lack of it, to be more accurate. The 1962 Sixers allowed 122.7 ppg...LAST in the nba....Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg that yr; 1963 warriors allowed 120.6 ppg...LAST in the nba...Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg that yr. In Wilts 2 highest scoring yrs, his teams were DEAD LAST in ppg allowed

My question is this: was Wilt spiking blocked shots into the opponents basket? Allowing 122.7 ppg and 120.6 ppg is not exactly shut-down defense considering stat-boy Wilt knew they didnt keep individual defensive stats, you know, where his priorities were....

Wow great post. Shows that stats are misleading.

[97 bulls]

DEFENSIVE WIN-SHARES...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html

(BTW, that last link is cumulative...so Wilt's average per season was actually SECOND all-time.)

So what your implying is that it was never wilts fault. Only his teammates

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wow great post. Shows that stats are misleading.

Indeed. His defensive impact is grossly overrated, especially on this forum.

Here are 2 games within a span of 5 days that truly define Wilt....

March 2nd, 1962 = Wilt scores 100 pts vs the bottom-feeding, New york Knicks

March 7th, 1962= Celtics beat Sixers 153-102...Wilt destroyed by 51 pts vs a GOOD team. That seems about right...dominate the cupcakes, get dominated by the Elite(the Wilt way).

[97 bulls]

Indeed. His defensive impact is grossly overrated, especially on this forum.

Here are 2 games within a span of 5 days that truly define Wilt....

March 2nd, 1962 = Wilt scores 100 pts vs the bottom-feeding, New york Knicks

March 7th, 1962= Celtics beat Sixers 153-102...Wilt destroyed by 51 pts vs a GOOD team. That seems about right...dominate the cupcakes, get dominated by the Elite(the Wilt way).

Just from a few of the posts I've seen from you, I think chamberlains biggest weakness is that he had a low IQ. I'm sure there are a lot of basketball players could've shot jacked their way into the record books. But at the expense of winning. Jordan was on that same path.

[jlauber]

Just from a few of the posts I've seen from you, I think chamberlains biggest weakness is that he had a low IQ. I'm sure there are a lot of basketball players could've shot jacked their way into the record books. But at the expense of winning. Jordan was on that same path.

Chamberlain could have scored FAR more points. The fact that he didn't was based primarily on FINALLY getting some quality teammates. Rick Barry won the NBA scoring title in the 66-67 season, at 35.6 ppg, and afterwards he "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him win it. Virtually EVERYONE in the league KNEW that had Wilt wanted it, he would have got it. Of course, Wilt had the HIGH game in EVERY season in the decade of the 60's, too. One of the "what-if" seasons that we could have seen from Chamberlain came in his 69-70 season (his 11th.) His new coach, Joe Mullaney, asked that Wilt become the focal point of the offense in that season. And in his first nine games, Chamberlain hung games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points, and was averaging 32.2 ppg on close to 60% shooting in those nine games. Unfortunately, he shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was never quite the same afterwards.

And once again, where do you get a "low IQ" from? Chamberlain was SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying inept rosters to within an eyelash of beating Russell's Celtics. And he was the ONLY one that actual knocked them off in the decade of the 60's, as well.

Kuniva-Dickwad cites TWO games from Wilt's 61-62 season. How about his play in the playoffs? In the clinching game five, of a best-of-five series, he put up a 56-35 game. Then, he took that same basic LAST-PLACE roster that he inherited in his rookie season, to a game seven, two-point loss, against Russell's 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers. In game two of that series, and playing against an ELITE Russell, all Wilt did was outscore Russell, 42-9, and outrebound Russell, 37-20...and the result? A 113-106 win. THAT was how bad Chamberlain's rosters were. He had to have MONUMENTAL games for his team's to win. Oh, and BTW, in the entire 61-62 playoffs, Wilt's teammates collectively shot .354. Now, you tell me just how Wilt got THAT team to a game seven, two-point loss against that HOF-laden Celtic squad?

And BTW, Wilt also hung a 50-35 game against Russell in a must-win game five of the '60 ECF's, and in a 128-107 win!

As for that 51 point loss in the '62 season. How about Wilt and his Sixers in the '67 season? In game five of that season, Wilt led his Sixers to a 138-96 win over Russell's Celtics. And, unlike Wilt's inept clowns of that '62 season, Russell's '67 Celtics went 60-21. THEN, Chamberlain took his 68-13 team to a near SWEEP of Russell's Celtics. Had Boston not eked out a 121-117 win in Boston in game four, they would have swept them. In game five, they overcame a 17 point first period deficit, and actually led 131-104 late, en route to a 140-116 rout of Russell's Celtics. And in that game all Wilt did was outscore Russell, 29-4; outshoot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassist Russell, 13-7; and outrebound Russell, 36-21.

[jlauber]

So what your implying is that it was never wilts fault. Only his teammates

You tell me...

Once again...TEAM game. I have mentioned it before, but just a couple of quick examples...

In Wilt's 59-69 playoffs, he averaged 33.2 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and shot .496 (in a league that shot .410.) His teammates collectively shot .380 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 60-61 playoffs, he averaged 37 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .469 (in a league that shot .415.) His teammates collectively shot .332 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 61-62 playoffs, he averaged 35 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .467 (in a league that shot .426.) His teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 63-64 playoffs, he averaged 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and shot .543 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collective shot .382 in that post-season.

In Chamberlain's 65-66 playoffs, he averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collectively shot .352.

I could go thru every one of his post-seasons, but in any case, he seldom had much help...even when he had some good rosters.

[Sarcastic]

So what your implying is that it was never wilts fault. Only his teammates

Do you understand the concept of "team game"?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

All I see is incoherent rambling. Bill Russell is laughing at Wilts passing. Check the facts. Wilt averaged 673 assists in 7559 minutes in the playoffs. Russell averaged 770 assists in 7497 minutes in the playoffs.

Russell had 97 more assists than Wilt in the playoffs...in 62 fewer minutes! One more time, Wilt played for numbers AND he got them. Russell played for letters...and he got them....as in W's....

[97 bulls]

Do you understand the concept of "team game"?

Yep. Do you?

[jlauber]

Do you understand the concept of "team game"?

It always amazed me how Wilt was blamed for being a selfish "stats-padder"...when it was his COACHES who asked him to shoot. My god, judging by just how horribly they shot in those "stats-padding" seasons, if anything, Wilt's COACHES should have DEMANDED that his teammates pass the ball to Wilt on EVERY possession. He was shooting over 50%, and they were struggling to shoot 40%.

And was any other "great" player been asked to change their game more than Wilt? He was a high volume scorer early on. Then he was asked to slightly cut back his shooting in the mid-60's. Then he was asked to be a super efficient facilitator in the '67 thru '69 seasons. Then, his new coach asked him to shoot more in the '70 season, and he was leading the league in scoring (and on about 60% shooting) when he sustained a horrific knee injury. Then, in the 70's, his coach asked that he concentrate on defense, rebounding, and outlet passing (and in which he ignited a devastating fast-break.)

And he did all that, while playing more minutes per game than anyone else in NBA history. AND, he played on TWELVE "winning" teams, as well as TWELVE teams that made it to the Conference Finals; Six of which made it to the Finals. He played on FOUR teams with the best record in the league. He played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games. And he anchored two title-winning teams that went 68-13 and 69-13 (including 33 straight wins.)

And yet, he was considered a selfish, shot-jacking, "stats-padder."

[RRR3]

W

What did I say that was wrong? They are very similar statistically.

Yep, it's not like Magic averaged 6 and a half more PPG and more than THREE TIMES the rebounds Stockton did.

[97 bulls]

It always amazed me how Wilt was blamed for being a selfish "stats-padder"...when it was his COACHES who asked him to shoot. My god, judging by just how horribly they shot in those "stats-padding" seasons, if anything, Wilt's COACHES should have DEMANDED that his teammates pass the ball to Wilt on EVERY possession. He was shooting over 50%, and they were struggling to shoot 40%.
But yet they weren't winning. And to be honest, his teammates didn't shoot bad relative to the time they played. Shootiing mid 30% was the norm. And he seemed to have some of the better teams throughout the 60s.

And was any other "great" player been asked to change their game more than Wilt? He was a high volume scorer early on. Then he was asked to slightly cut back his shooting in the mid-60's. Then he was asked to be a super efficient facilitator in the '67 thru '69 seasons. Then, his new coach asked him to shoot more in the '70 season, and he was leading the league in scoring (and on about 60% shooting) when he sustained a horrific knee injury. Then, in the 70's, his coach asked that he concentrate on defense, rebounding, and outlet passing (and in which he ignited a devastating fast-break.)

And he did all that, while playing more minutes per game than anyone else in NBA history. AND, he played on TWELVE "winning" teams, as well as TWELVE teams that made it to the Conference Finals; Six of which made it to the Finals. He played on FOUR teams with the best record in the league. He played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games. And he anchored two title-winning teams that went 68-13 and 69-13 (including 33 straight wins.)

And yet, he was considered a selfish, shot-jacking, "stats-padder."

Very interesting. But still J, stats don't tell the whole story. HE DIDN'T WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS at a rate the other greats did. And it wasn't because his teams were bad. It mayve been his coaches. Cuz when you have one guy taking as many shots as your next 5 players, you don't win. Then you factor in that he just couldn't hit fts. Sure he made a lot as you love to point out. But not at an efficient level.

[97 bulls]

Yep, it's not like Magic averaged 6 and a half more PPG and more than THREE TIMES the rebounds Stockton did.

My god why do people say stuff like this. Stockton in the 80s avg about 16-17 ppg. Magic about 19. And in a higher tempo offense. Magic was a horrible defender. Stockton was a good defender. Stockton also avg more assists than magic. Magic has the rings and mvps.

Did you read the OP? If your gonna look at their stats, but look at their situations too.