The Trouble with Data and Statistics

[jlauber]

I'm not honestly. I'm saying stats don't tell the whole story. Wilt teammates didn't shoot any worse than what was the norm for that era. Wilt just didn't win. It sounds to me based on jlaubers posts and going back and checking, that his team was good enough, but his coaches just didn't utilize the team concept. And wilt was a terrible ft shooter which is what cost them about 4 championships.

Using FT shooting, MJ blew that double-OT loss against the Celtics in the '86 playoffs when he scored 63 points. Had he not missed two FTs, the Bulls would have won that game (not that it would have made much of a difference overall.)

If we replace Chamberlain, and his relatively poor FT shooting, with a LESSOR player (which would certainly have been the case with virtually anyone else), would his TEAM's have won then? Chamberlain was POUNDING his opposing teams. He was routinely scoring scoring 30-40 ppg and getting 25-30 rpg, as well as severely limiting them on the defensive end.

Once again, take a look at how Wilt's teammates performed in several of his early post-seasons...

In Wilt's 59-69 playoffs, he averaged 33.2 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and shot .496 (in a league that shot .410.) His teammates collectively shot .380 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 60-61 playoffs, he averaged 37 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .469 (in a league that shot .415.) His teammates collectively shot .332 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 61-62 playoffs, he averaged 35 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .467 (in a league that shot .426.) His teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

In Wilt's 63-64 playoffs, he averaged 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and shot .543 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collective shot .382 in that post-season.

In Chamberlain's 65-66 playoffs, he averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 (in a league that shot .433.) His teammates collectively shot .352.

Now, you are telling me that it was WILT's fault that those TEAM's did not win?

[97 bulls]

Using FT shooting, MJ blew that double-OT loss against the Celtics in the '86 playoffs when he scored 63 points. Had he not missed two FTs, the Bulls would have won that game (not that it would have made much of a difference overall.)

If we replace Chamberlain, and his relatively poor FT shooting, with a LESSOR player (which would certainly have been the case with virtually anyone else), would his TEAM's have won then? Chamberlain was POUNDING his opposing teams. He was routinely scoring scoring 30-40 ppg and getting 25-30 rpg, as well as severely limiting them on the defensive end.

Once again, take a look at how Wilt's teammates performed in several of his early post-seasons...



Now, you are telling me that it was WILT's fault that those TEAM's did not win?

No offense J. But where are you getting your info from?

[jlauber]

No offense J. But where are you getting your info from?

What info are you questioning?

Basketball-reference has Wilt's playoff team numbers. Subtract Wilt's from his teammates, and you can get how they performed.

[97 bulls]

What info are you questioning?

Basketball-reference has Wilt's playoff team numbers. Subtract Wilt's from his teammates, and you can get how they performed.

Ok, I see what you did.

Let me ask you a question...... why did wilts numbers drop along with his teammates?

[jlauber]

Ok, I see what you did.

Let me ask you a question...... why did wilts numbers drop along with his teammates?

Aside from his unfathomable '62 regular season numbers, Wilt's numbers dropped very little. And there were several reasons for those declines. One, believe-it-or-not, the "pace" of the game declined in the post-seasons. For example, in Wilt's '62 season, during the regular season, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg on .426 shooting. In the playoffs, the numbers dropped to 112.6 on .411 shooting.

Secondly...and I have mentioned this MANY times...Wilt faced a HOF center in nearly TWO-THIRDS of his 160 post-season games (and All-Stars in others.) Not only that, but he faced the greatest defensive center in nearly ONE-THIRD of them (Russell in 49 games.) On top of Russell's 49 games, he faced Reed in 18 games (including seven games in Reed's first-team all defensive season of '70); Thurmond (who may have been the best one-on-one defensive center of all-time) in 17 games; Kareem in 11 games; Lucas (as a center) in 10 games (and another 8 games as a PF); and Bellamy in six games. Then add players like five-time all-star Zelmo Beaty (seven games); HOFer and all-star Wayne Embry 11 games; three-time all-star Red Kerr in 11 games; and HOFer Clyde Lovellette in a couple of games in his last season.

Add those games up...not many against NON-HOFers or All-Stars are there?

And, while his FG% dropped slightly from a career .540 to .522, that is no more of a drop than most of the "greats." MJ went from .497 to .487. Bird went from .496 to .472. Shaq from .582 to .563. And Kareem from .559 to .533. And keep in mind that Wilt played in league's with MUCH LOWER overall FG%'s, too.

Furthermore, Wilt routinely held his opposing centers, (and here again, most of those games were against HOFers) to WAY BELOW their normal FG%'s. He faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot Nate in each, .560 to .343, .500 to .398, and .550 to .392. Reed shot .507 in the '70 regular season, and against Wilt in '70, he shot .483. Bellamy shot .541 in the '68 regular season, and against Wilt in the '68 playoffs, he shot .421. Russell shot .454 in the '67 regular season, but against Wilt in the '67 ECF's, he only shot .358. Kareem shot .577 in the '71 regular season, and against Wilt in the '71 WCF's, he only shot .481. And Kareem shot .574 in the '72 regular season, but only .457 against Wilt in the '72 WCF's (and only .414 over the course of the last four games of that six game series.)

Finally, Wilt outrebounded ALL of them. Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and he was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of them. In fact, he was usually CRUSHING his opposing centers. Interesting too, was the fact that Russell is the all-time career post-season rebounding leader at 24.9 rpg...BUT, Chamberlain outrebounded him in ALL eight of their H2H post-season series. And, in fact, when Russell retired in '69, and with his 24.9 rpg mark...Wilt was at 26.3 rpg in HIS post-season career at the time. Wilt's numbers declined slightly after that, and that is why he was "only" at 24.5 in his post-season career...which was still nearly two more per game than his regular season career average.

[ThaRegul8r]

Using FT shooting, MJ blew that double-OT loss against the Celtics in the '86 playoffs when he scored 63 points. Had he not missed two FTs, the Bulls would have won that game (not that it would have made much of a difference overall.)

In all his magnificence, Jordan still proved he is only human. After dropping two pressure-packed free throws to send the game into overtime, Jordan misfired on a 15-footer with three seconds left in the first overtime. That shot would have finished off the Celtics and brought a richly deserved triumph to the Bulls.

If Jordan hit that shot, the Bulls would have won the game. That was independent of his teammates and solely within his control. The truth is the truth. Though I wonder if anyone would be talking about that game the way they do if Jordan hit that shot, and thus didn't score a playoff-record 63 points. I wonder.

[jlauber]

In all his magnificence, Jordan still proved he is only human. After dropping two pressure-packed free throws to send the game into overtime, Jordan misfired on a 15-footer with three seconds left in the first overtime. That shot would have finished off the Celtics and brought a richly deserved triumph to the Bulls.

If Jordan hit that shot, the Bulls would have won the game. That was independent of his teammates and solely within his control. The truth is the truth. Though I wonder if anyone would be talking about that game the way they do if Jordan hit that shot, and thus didn't score a playoff-record 63 points. I wonder.

As always...very thoughtful post. I wonder how many folks here even knew that MJ scored those record points because of double-OT (he had 54 in regulation.)

[Math2]

As always...very thoughtful post. I wonder how many folks here even knew that MJ scored those record points because of double-OT (he had 54 in regulation.)

54 is still great, but it seems way overrated about how he scored 63. He scored 49 in game one....and held to 19 in game 3...Way overrated postseason.

[jlauber]

54 is still great, but it seems way overrated about how he scored 63. He scored 49 in game one....and held to 19 in game 3...Way overrated postseason.

Well, before we both get blasted here by the Jordanites...I will acknowledge that MJ was the game's greatest post-season scorer. And, once again, he certainly has a solid case as the GOAT.

STill, hard to argue with a player that won 11 rings in 13 seasons.

[Math2]

Well, before we both get blasted here by the Jordanites...I will acknowledge that MJ was the game's greatest post-season scorer. And, once again, he certainly has a solid case as the GOAT.

STill, hard to argue with a player that won 11 rings in 13 seasons.

Great scorer...solid case...11 rings>than anything

[The_Yearning]

I have seen Wilt play. Nobody that was over 6'7 guarded him.

And sometimes he wouldn't even run back on defense, his teams were playing 4v5 on defense while Wilt waited at the other end right by the goal.

[Math2]

I have seen Wilt play. Nobody that was over 6'7 guarded him.

And sometimes he wouldn't even run back on defense, his teams were playing 4v5 on defense while Wilt waited at the other end right by the goal.

Link?