Final list of ISHs Top 25 Guards.

[L.Kizzle]

No good is not the same as not deserving to be ranked over people who led teams to titles while being factually superior to you. Which Wade did...and is.

Wade was the best player on better teams than Cousy and is flat out better at the game than Cousy.

Hondo did his thing in the 70s. He had Cowens...but you cant say he wasnt needed.

Cousy? Ican say with no doubt he was not needed for that team to be a dynasty...because he won nothing without russell and russell won 5 without him and claimed they had their best team ever due to defense without Cousy.

there is just no justification for Cousy to be as high as he is unless we pretend Russell didnt exist. Credit cousy for those rings..fine. Rank him over Wade despite Wade being better in reality.

Credit the man who deserves it...Cousy is not near the level voted.

You could literally put me in my current form on the Celtics and if only for being bigger than him, a better athlete, and willing to play defense id win rings. They won 5 rings...without him.

Im not crediting him for their success at all. I just cant justify it.

Not only Cowens but JoJo White, Charlie Scott and Paul Silas among others.

And yes, Russell get's most of the credit, hence him being in most top 5 list.

[BIZARRO]

I think it came out to be overall a pretty nice list.

But there is no universe where Jason Kidd is better than Clyde Drexler.

[32MJ32]

What was the criteria for this list? Excellence against one's peers?

That's the only way this list makes sense to me

[Boston C's]

To you thats signicantly better? How would his percentages go up when his skills and athletic ability are declining due to age?

Why would you compare a 37 year old miller to a 35 year old allen? Miller at 35 was averaging 31.3 pts per game against the eventual eastern conference champs Sixers in the playoffs

What separates Miller with Allen to me is all the intangibles Reggie had and your telling me that Ray was better at that too?

I dont understand this post... I'm comparing a 37 yr old allen to a 35 yr old miller who wasnt nearly as productive... allen doesnt look like hes declining shooting wise he had his best shooting yr from the field... thats pretty damn impressive... intangibles sure he has one thing but ray is pretty damn clutch himself and reggies intangibles=overrated they make him better then he really is to everyone around the world... his intangibles got him ZERO rings... reggie is an all time great but ppl always forget his dismal performances and thats what baffles me you have to call it both ways... he killed the knicks but at the same time he had a few stinkers against them and other teams as well (game 7 in 94 or 95 i believe he was like 2-14 but nobody remembers that right)... again all time great player but he gets overrated a lot for his intangibles... ray allen is just a flat out better player then reggie

[Reggie43]

I dont understand this post... I'm comparing a 37 yr old allen to a 35 yr old miller who wasnt nearly as productive... allen doesnt look like hes declining shooting wise he had his best shooting yr from the field... thats pretty damn impressive... intangibles sure he has one thing but ray is pretty damn clutch himself and reggies intangibles=overrated they make him better then he really is to everyone around the world... his intangibles got him ZERO rings... reggie is an all time great but ppl always forget his dismal performances and thats what baffles me you have to call it both ways... he killed the knicks but at the same time he had a few stinkers against them and other teams as well (game 7 in 94 or 95 i believe he was like 2-14 but nobody remembers that right)... again all time great player but he gets overrated a lot for his intangibles... ray allen is just a flat out better player then reggie

You dont even know their ages Ray allen was 35 in his last season and you brought up a 37 year old miller as comparison?

Father time catches up with everyone, while it was great that he had a career shooting year the previous year its more likely to decline as he goes up in age.

Put prime Reggie as the 3rd best player on any team and certainly he would have a ring just like Ray

Everyone has a bad game and Ray's no exception. As the third best player on the team I remember he put up zero points with him playing 37mins in a playoff game against cleveland. How about the 0-13 finals game against the Lakers with him putting up 2pts? and the 3-14 game 7 he had in the same series?

And heres something I wrote on another thread

How about let them switch teams. Do you think Ray Allen can replicate all those Playoff heroics Miller did against Shaqs Magic, Ewing's Knicks, and Jordan's Bulls? plus many others

It would be easier to imagine Reggie having the same amount of success as the 3rd best player behind Pierce and Garnett on Boston than Ray playing in Indiana as the best player and taking on those aforementioned teams and being as successful

[Boston C's]

You dont even know their ages Ray allen was 35 in his last season and you brought up a 37 year old miller as comparison?

Father time catches up with everyone, while it was great that he had a career shooting year the previous year its more likely to decline as he goes up in age.

Put prime Reggie as the 3rd best player on any team and certainly he would have a ring just like Ray

Everyone has a bad game and Ray's no exception. As the third best player on the team I remember he put up zero points with him playing 37mins in a playoff game against cleveland. How about the 0-13 finals game against the Lakers with him putting up 2pts? and the 3-14 game 7 he had in the same series?

And heres something I wrote on another thread

How about let them switch teams. Do you think Ray Allen can replicate all those Playoff heroics Miller did against Shaqs Magic, Ewing's Knicks, and Jordan's Bulls? plus many others

It would be easier to imagine Reggie having the same amount of success as the 3rd best player behind Pierce and Garnett on Boston than Ray playing in Indiana as the best player and taking on those aforementioned teams and being as successful

heroics of what... losing to them anyway... do i think the pacers would be a better team with a prime ray allen absolutely theres no doubt in my mind because he could do MORE... and ray for the record was not in his prime with the celtics not even close... 2008 he was probably just getting out of his prime but not even close to his prime self... the fact of the matter is the pacers didnt win jack with reggie as their leader... you can talk about all of the heroics you want but they didnt amount to winning... the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable... with the pacers i see ray probably having the same amount of success... if you wanna look for a measuring stick look at the 04-05 sonics team he took to the playoffs that team was AWFUL... and they were picked to finish last in the west and in the entire nba by most analysts... and for the record ray was the second best celtic in the 2008 nba finals also he scored 2 points against the cavs lmao its still awful but i just wanted to point that out... we'll just agree to disagree i guess but i just strongly feel that ray was just flat out better then reggie at pretty much every facet of the game

[Reggie43]

heroics of what... losing to them anyway... do i think the pacers would be a better team with a prime ray allen absolutely theres no doubt in my mind because he could do MORE... and ray for the record was not in his prime with the celtics not even close... 2008 he was probably just getting out of his prime but not even close to his prime self... the fact of the matter is the pacers didnt win jack with reggie as their leader... you can talk about all of the heroics you want but they didnt amount to winning... the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable... with the pacers i see ray probably having the same amount of success... if you wanna look for a measuring stick look at the 04-05 sonics team he took to the playoffs that team was AWFUL... and they were picked to finish last in the west and in the entire nba by most analysts... and for the record ray was the second best celtic in the 2008 nba finals also he scored 2 points against the cavs lmao its still awful but i just wanted to point that out... we'll just agree to disagree i guess but i just strongly feel that ray was just flat out better then reggie at pretty much every facet of the game

Aside from the bulls series the pacers were 1-1 against orlando and won half the time against the knicks

By saying the pacers would be a better team with Ray Allen with ray being so much better its safe to assume that you think the pacers with Ray will be able to beat Shaq and the Magic, Ewing and the Knicks and Jordan with the Bulls because Reggie took all those teams to a game 7 before losing the series

And for the last time please explain to me why the much better player in his prime got outplayed significantly by the inferior player who was out of his prime who was supposed to be lesser at every aspect of the game

[Reggie43]

heroics of what... losing to them anyway... do i think the pacers would be a better team with a prime ray allen absolutely theres no doubt in my mind because he could do MORE... and ray for the record was not in his prime with the celtics not even close... 2008 he was probably just getting out of his prime but not even close to his prime self... the fact of the matter is the pacers didnt win jack with reggie as their leader... you can talk about all of the heroics you want but they didnt amount to winning... the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable... with the pacers i see ray probably having the same amount of success... if you wanna look for a measuring stick look at the 04-05 sonics team he took to the playoffs that team was AWFUL... and they were picked to finish last in the west and in the entire nba by most analysts... and for the record ray was the second best celtic in the 2008 nba finals also he scored 2 points against the cavs lmao its still awful but i just wanted to point that out... we'll just agree to disagree i guess but i just strongly feel that ray was just flat out better then reggie at pretty much every facet of the game

He scored zero points on 0-4 shooting with 4 rebs 1 assist and 4 turnovers in 37 mins

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...805060BOS.html

[Boston C's]

He scored zero points on 0-4 shooting with 4 rebs 1 assist and 4 turnovers in 37 mins

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...805060BOS.html

I stand corrected there... and from individual matchups you act like reggie dominated every game he and ray played against... there were games ray outplayed him... if you wanna completely ignore my points then thats your problem... but any basketball fan that knows anything knows that ray allen has surpassed reggie miller in his career it was set in stone when he broke his 3 point record this yr because that was the only thing that reggie had on him and with that gone he has nothing over ray at all... rings check... accolades check... records check... everything else check... again i love reggie and am a huge fan i just dont see the case for him being over ray when ray has surpassed him in literally every statistical category... you have your opinion and i have mine i guess

[aau]

the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball
player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable

but the discussion was about scoring and
ability off the dribble , why the change

anyway how is it that
ray never shot 50% from the floor while
reggie shot 50% 4x - incl 50/42/90 in 1994

or

CAREERWISE

FTA
reggie 27th with 7,026
rayray 97th with 4,540

FTM
reggie 14th with 6,237
rayray 66th with 4,056

earl monroe and rod strickland took more FT than ray
mitch richmond and world b free made more

only 4 SGs made/att more FT than reggie

jordan - west - kobe - iverson

.

.

look at the awful sonics team he took to the playoffs

ok

RAY 50+ wins 2x

2005 SEA 52-30 ... ray avg 24 -- rashard 20 -- PGs = 10a
2001 MIL 52-30 ... ray avg 22 -- big dog 22 -- cassell 18

- POSTSEASON -

2005 beat SAC 4-1 -- SAS 2-4
2001 beat ORL 3-1 -- CHA 4-3 -- PHI 3-4

led team to ECF once

.

.

REGGIE 50+ wins 4x

58-24 in 98 --- reggie avg 19 -- smits 16
56-26 in 00 --- reggie avg 18 -- j rose 18
52-30 in 95 --- reggie avg 19 -- smits 18
52-30 in 96 --- reggie avg 21 -- smits 18

- POSTSEASON -

1998 beat CLE 3-1 -- NYK 4-1 -- CHI 3-4

2000 beat MIL 3-2 -- PHI 4-2 --- NYK 4-2 -- LAL 2-4

1995 beat ATL 3-0 -- NYK 4-3 -- ORL 3-4

1996 lost ATL 2-3 - - broken eye socket had 29p in G5

led team to ECF 3 times - NBA FINALS once

ray's first 11 years

won less than 40 games 6 times

reggie's first 13 years

won less than 40 games 3 times

[D.J.]

Nash being above Drexler and Payton.

[aau]

Ray's 4 Years in BOS

2008 - 3rd leading scorer RS & PS

2009 - 2nd leading scorer RS & PS

2010 - 2nd leading scorer RS & PS

2011 - 2nd leading scorer RS & PS

so

the one year they won the title

he was the 3rd leading scorer

not sure he's apart of tri-kick title

seeing that rondo was more impactful

[Kblaze8855]

I think im gonna do the forwards now since goat is nowhere to be seen. But im tbhinking of a way to rank the initial list without counting lists of 25 guys you all rank.

[Legends66NBA7]

I think im gonna do the forwards now since goat is nowhere to be seen. But im tbhinking of a way to rank the initial list without counting lists of 25 guys you all rank.

Sounds cool.

Will there be more people added to the list for voting purposes ?

If so, I would put my name in that hat.

[Kblaze8855]

How would using the forwards from the ish top 100 work? Just the top25 ranked forwards from it. Id just have to work up a way to include the guys to rise in the ranks since 07 like durant and lebron who would throw everything off.