First two weeks of 2011-12 NBA regular season OFFICIALLY CANCELED

[AMISTILLILL]

Are you really out of ammo now, and want to go off topic?

...what the hell are you talking about? The first sentence was a joke. This isn't some sort of flame war... I just can't wrap my head around why somebody would be so convinced that an organization is out to commit all these heinous atrocities with no rhyme or reason.

[Sarcastic]

Dude... are you serious? Prove anything you've stated is RIGHT. The burden of proof is on your hands, not mine. You're conjecturing that a multi-billion dollar organization is doing all kinds of seedy shenanigans behind closed doors but have zero empirical evidence to backup these kinds of lofty claims. I'm simply stating information that's been proliferated through the media by the heads of said organization who, to the best of our knowledge, have done nothing to lead us to believe they're secretly trying to screw everyone.

Do you write ESPN and a myriad of sports columnists to 'prove things' too? No, because they report news and information grounded in legitimacy and fact, no paranoia and speculation.

The NBA won't open any of the books, so the only thing that we can go on is the word of David Stern. Are you that naive that you believe everything a lawyer tells you?

[Sarcastic]

...what the hell are you talking about? The first sentence was a joke. This isn't some sort of flame war... I just can't wrap my head around why somebody would be so convinced that an organization is out to commit all these heinous atrocities with no rhyme or reason.

I'm trying to stay on topic, and you are going off onto tangents about tin foil hats and WTC7.

Show me 1 independent source that says the NBA is losing as much as they claim.

[AMISTILLILL]

The NBA won't open any of the books, so the only thing that we can go on is the word of David Stern. Are you that naive that you believe everything a lawyer tells you?

Why does the NBA need to open their books? That has literally no relevance to what we're talking about. I hate to conjure this up again but your argument here is starting to sound awfully familiar to the whole 'truther' movement. Simply demanding free access to information isn't grounds to assume wrong-doing is at hand... that's just misguided and bizarre. The NBA has no legitimate reason to divulge their financial information to anyone. Once again, the league has done absolutely nothing to lead us to believe they're steering us away from some dastardly scheme.

As I stated earlier, you're more than welcome to remain skeptical about it but you can't be surprised when somebody thinks your opinion is way off base and anything but lucid.

[AMISTILLILL]

I'm trying to stay on topic, and you are going off onto tangents about tin foil hats and WTC7.

Show me 1 independent source that says the NBA is losing as much as they claim.

How exactly does an independent source automatically equate unequivocal credibility?

[NuggetsFan]

Go look up the Blazers lease agreement with the Rose Center. Then look up who owns the Blazers and who owns the Rose Center. The answer to both is Paul Allen. He pays the Rose Center money from the Blazers in order to use the arena.

I could be really off with this thinking BUT

- Allen owns the Blazers
- Allen owns the Arena.

He pays the Blazers dues to use said arena to himself. However there two separate businesses. Pretty sure the Nuggets are the same too. So yeah the Nuggets owner isn't technically losing money because he's making profit off his arena but his Denver Nuggets business still could be. There different. It's like saying if Mark Cuban is losing money with the Mavericks it's irrelevant because he's making money in other area's.

Yeah It's kinds shady\stupid that the owners themselves probably aren't losing that much money as being advertised because of something like this, doesn't mean the FRANCHISE isn't actually losing that much. Just because Stan Kroenke is paying himself doesn't make the Denver Nuggets profitable, just means he himself isn't losing as much due to his other business ventures. So the Denver Nuggets as whole could be losing what is being said? Using Nuggets\Blazers are random ex.

I could be really off here, tired as shit

[DMAVS41]

The NBA won't open any of the books, so the only thing that we can go on is the word of David Stern. Are you that naive that you believe everything a lawyer tells you?

They opened their books to the players right?

Do you actually think the owners are committing fraud? And if they were bluffing...don't you think they would have conceded more once the season actually became at risk?

The actual missing of games pretty proves that the owners have serious issues....and on the other side...that the players think the current offered deals are a joke.

I think we are way beyond the point of questioning the legitimacy of the positions.

[Sarcastic]

I could be really off with this thinking BUT

- Allen owns the Blazers
- Allen owns the Arena.

He pays the Blazers dues to use said arena to himself. However there two separate businesses. Pretty sure the Nuggets are the same too. So yeah the Nuggets owner isn't technically losing money because he's making profit off his arena but his Denver Nuggets business still could be. There different. It's like saying if Mark Cuban is losing money with the Mavericks it's irrelevant because he's making money in other area's.

Yeah It's kinds shady\stupid that the owners themselves probably aren't losing that much money as being advertised because of something like this, doesn't mean the FRANCHISE isn't actually losing that much. Just because Stan Kroenke is paying himself doesn't make the Denver Nuggets profitable, just means he himself isn't losing as much due to his other business ventures. So the Denver Nuggets as whole could be losing what is being said? Using Nuggets\Blazers are random ex.

I could be really off here, tired as shit

What they are do is perfectly legal according to GAAP, however it's disingenuous to say the owners are all losing money on their teams. On paper, sure. But in reality they are not. Not all at least. I am sure there are some that can't make money no matter what, but those teams should be cut anyway (Bucks, Kings, etc).

[DMAVS41]

I could be really off with this thinking BUT

- Allen owns the Blazers
- Allen owns the Arena.

He pays the Blazers dues to use said arena to himself. However there two separate businesses. Pretty sure the Nuggets are the same too. So yeah the Nuggets owner isn't technically losing money because he's making profit off his arena but his Denver Nuggets business still could be. There different. It's like saying if Mark Cuban is losing money with the Mavericks it's irrelevant because he's making money in other area's.

Yeah It's kinds shady\stupid that the owners themselves probably aren't losing that much money as being advertised because of something like this, doesn't mean the FRANCHISE isn't actually losing that much. Just because Stan Kroenke is paying himself doesn't make the Denver Nuggets profitable, just means he himself isn't losing as much due to his other business ventures. So the Denver Nuggets as whole could be losing what is being said? Using Nuggets\Blazers are random ex.

I could be really off here, tired as shit

Yep.

And this is exactly why the real world matters so much. Because the owners have lost a lot of money due to the recession, they have less money coming in from those other businesses.

In the past, they negotiated deals that didn't take such hard stances because they didn't have to. Its not like owners of a NBA team have to lose money...or have to make money. They can treat it as a business or as owning a precious piece of art. As owners, they get to decide. If they want to run it like a straight up business and make a profit...its their right.

[Sarcastic]

They opened their books to the players right?

Do you actually think the owners are committing fraud? And if they were bluffing...don't you think they would have conceded more once the season actually became at risk?

The actual missing of games pretty proves that the owners have serious issues....and on the other side...that the players think the current offered deals are a joke.

I think we are way beyond the point of questioning the legitimacy of the positions.

The players said the numbers were much less than the NBA's reported number.

He said, she said. Pick your side.

Again, I am fine with the players giving back money. That is perfectly reasonable. I think changes should be made. But the owners trying to go for a 50/50 split is just them trying to grab as many dollars as they can.

[DMAVS41]

What they are do is perfectly legal according to GAAP, however it's disingenuous to say the owners are all losing money on their teams. On paper, sure. But in reality they are not. Not all at least. I am sure there are some that can't make money no matter what, but those teams should be cut anyway (Bucks, Kings, etc).

LOL...you do realize that the players are totally against contraction and would never agree to it. They would lose 15 jobs per team....

Contraction is like the ultimate weapon of the owners. And you are supporting it? LOL

[NuggetsFan]

What they are do is perfectly legal according to GAAP, however it's disingenuous to say the owners are all losing money on their teams. On paper, sure. But in reality they are not. Not all at least. I am sure there are some that can't make money no matter what, but those teams should be cut anyway (Bucks, Kings, etc).

But in reality those are two different businesses. Doesn't matter that they are owned by the same people, just makes it douchey. NBA lockout concerns NBA franchises. So if Allen is making bank of his Blazers from the Rose center it doesn't make it ok if the Blazers aren't making money. You can't go well the Blazers lost 10m but 7 of that went to the Rose Garden so really Allen is only losing out on 3m. Doesn't work that way. The Blazers loss would be 10m plain and simple.

Of course simply just talking about your one point with the arenas's\owners with random numbers.

[DMAVS41]

The players said the numbers were much less than the NBA's reported number.

He said, she said. Pick your side.

Again, I am fine with the players giving back money. That is perfectly reasonable. I think changes should be made. But the owners trying to go for a 50/50 split is just them trying to grab as many dollars as they can.

Call it what you want. Its smart business. The owners have a great power position with leverage....it would be bad business not to use it. Especially when a lot of owners are actually struggling.

Once again, the owners position makes sense business wise. The players position is one that I'm struggling to understand business wise because they have little to no leverage and each game they miss costs them millions of dollars they can never get back.

[All Net]

Ugh

This is all about greed

[icewill36]

as a fan who just wants to see ball, its hard to feel bad for either side. **** em both for letting it come to this, but i hate the owners getting the better of the deal when most of them aren't even doing everything they can to try and win a title. most just are in it to turn a profit. they are businessmen who usually dont even care for the sport they own a team for. i also believe owners care about fans far less than players do since players are the product and who fans love and cheer for. its easier for owners to keep this lockout without caving because of this and the longer it goes on the more hate players will get. id like to see the players get a fair deal but rather see pro ball ASAP.