The Five Centers --- Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq

[jlauber]

I'd pretty easily give it up to Hakeem over Moses. And I count Duncan as a Pf and even if he was a C I wouldn't have him over Hakeem.


It'd pretty much end up being

Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses

I wouldn't argue with any of the above. I, too, have Hakeem above Moses. Still, Moses won THREE MVPs. He had far better statistical seasons. And he dominated a near prime Kareem TWICE in the playoffs in the early 80's, while we all KNOW that a 37-38 year old Kareem (nearly 39 BTW), had THREE games of 40+ on Hakeem, and an entire season, covering H2H games, in which averaged 33 ppg...on a get this... a mind-numbing .634 FG%. I just can't get over that.

My god, Kareem faced Nate Thurmond in some 50 H2H games, and Kareem's HIGH game against him was 34 points. Not only that, but Kareem seldom even scored 30 on Nate, and had SEVERAL games of under 20. In fact, in three straight playoff series, from '71 thru '73, Thurmond held Kareem to 28.6 ppg on .486; 22.8 ppg on .405 (yes, .405) AND he outscored Kareem in that series as well; and then 22.8 ppg on .428 shooting.

Furthermore, take a look at Shaq vs Hakeem H2H's in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season. He just CRUSHES Hakeem in nearly EVERY category...some by HUGE margins.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

The domination is so overwhelming that I can't help but think that Moses would surely have played O'Neal much better (as would have Nate.)

[millwad]

I wouldn't argue with any of the above. I, too, have Hakeem above Moses. Still, Moses won THREE MVPs. He had far better statistical seasons. And he dominated a near prime Kareem TWICE in the playoffs in the early 80's, while we all KNOW that a 37-38 year old Kareem (nearly 39 BTW), had THREE games of 40+ on Hakeem, and an entire season, covering H2H games, in which averaged 33 ppg...on a get this... a mind-numbing .634 FG%. I just can't get over that.

Against Akeem, not Hakeem and it was in Olajuwon's rookie and 2nd year pro season and still Olajuwon in his 2nd pro season abused the Lakers big men (Kareem included) in the playoffs. And what I can't get over is that you judge Hakeem based on his rookie and 2nd year pro season (where he also led his team to the finals and killed the Lakers in the playoffs).


And regarding Moses 3 MVP's, Wilt only won one more so in that case Moses is really close to Wilt.. And in that case Nash and Malone both are better than Hakeem and Shaq..

My god, Kareem faced Nate Thurmond in some 50 H2H games, and Kareem's HIGH game against him was 34 points. Not only that, but Kareem seldom even scored 30 on Nate, and had SEVERAL games of under 20. In fact, in three straight playoff series, from '71 thru '73, Thurmond held Kareem to 28.6 ppg on .486; 22.8 ppg on .405 (yes, .405) AND he outscored Kareem in that series as well; and then 22.8 ppg on .428 shooting.

My god, Nate is not a top 10 center. Only top 10 center Wilt faced was Russell (who won more MVP's than Wilt and also won more than 5 times the amount of rings compared to Wilton and then Kareem).

Furthermore, take a look at Shaq vs Hakeem H2H's in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season. He just CRUSHES Hakeem in nearly EVERY category...some by HUGE margins.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01


The domination is so overwhelming that I can't help but think that Moses would surely have played O'Neal much better (as would have Nate.)

Which again proves that you're an idiot, 13 of those games are after Hakeem's 1995 season where Hakeem no longer could be considered to be in his prime. In fact, 9 of those games where in the '99 season or after where Hakeem was 36 years and older.

And half of the playoff match-ups between Shaq and Hakeem were when Hakeem was 36 years old, you idiot.

[Kurosawa0]

Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

There is your list

That's mine too.

[Math2]

KAJ
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
The Dream

Again there is no excuse for not having KAJ at #1.

Russell at 4. I can live with KAJ at 1 (but disagree), but Shaq above Russell is just awful.

[jlauber]

Against Akeem, not Hakeem and it was in Olajuwon's rookie and 2nd year pro season and still Olajuwon in his 2nd pro season abused the Lakers big men (Kareem included) in the playoffs. And what I can't get over is that you judge Hakeem based on his rookie and 2nd year pro season (where he also led his team to the finals and killed the Lakers in the playoffs).


And regarding Moses 3 MVP's, Wilt only won one more so in that case Moses is really close to Wilt.. And in that case Nash and Malone both are better than Hakeem and Shaq..



My god, Nate is not a top 10 center. Only top 10 center Wilt faced was Russell (who won more MVP's than Wilt and also won more than 5 times the amount of rings compared to Wilton and then Kareem).



Which again proves that you're an idiot, 13 of those games are after Hakeem's 1995 season where Hakeem no longer could be considered to be in his prime. In fact, 9 of those games where in the '99 season or after where Hakeem was 36 years and older.

And half of the playoff match-ups between Shaq and Hakeem were when Hakeem was 36 years old, you idiot.

First of all, take a look at Hakeem's numbers in that second season, and then compare them to either his 94 or 95 season. VERY close. If Hakeem's prime was in '94, it was CLEARLY not much better than his '86 season.

And that is major difference between a PRIME Kareem, and a 38 year old Kareem. Kareem's '71 and '72 seasons are LIGHT YEARS ahead of his 85-86 season.

And back to Hakeem's PRIME. The man played EIGHTEEN seasons, and you can only come up with TWO years in which he was in it? Kareem was DOMINANT for an ENTIRE decade. Wilt was even MORE dominant for an ENTIRE decade. And BOTH Kareem and Wilt were dominant even AFTER their primes.

Competition? Wilt faced Bellamy, Reed, Lovellette, Embry, Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, Hayes, Unseld, McAdoo, Russell, and Kareem. All in the HOF. He even outplayed Gilmore in a few minutes of play in the 71-72 NBA-ABA all-star game. And he faced them FAR more OFTEN than the few "greats" that Hakeem faced.

I am seriously getting tired of this nonsense. Very few intelligent posters have Hakeem over Wilt in any kind of comparisons. I respect ShaqAttack, and I while I disagree with him on this topic, at least he presents a far more researched argument. Other than him, I haven't seen ANY rational post which would have Hakeem anywhere NEAR Wilt in a "ranking" system.

The reality was, and this not debatable, Hakeem was SELDOM regarded as even among the Top-FOUR in his EIGHTEEN years in the league. He won ONE MVP (and again, in a season in which MJ took the year off.) He came in second ONE time. And he finisihed in the top-4, on TWO other occasions. FOUR times in EIGHTEEN seasons he was considered in the Top-4 in HIS era. And, he wasn't even acknowledged as a Top-10 player in HALF of those 18 seasons. What does that tell you???

As far as post-season play, he won a ring in a year in which MJ took the year off. And his 58-24 team barely edged Ewing and a 56-26 Knick team that had no more surrounding talent than what Hakeem had. In his '95 run, he demolished Robinson in four of their six games. In the Finals, he might have been credited with outplaying Shaq, but still, to only outscore a young Shaq, 32-28, while being OVERWHELMINGLY outshot, .595 to .483, as well as outrebounded, outassisted, and outblocked...well, it was certainly not a domination.

But how about the rest of his other SIXTEEN seasons? His teams didn't even make the playoffs in three of them. And, as YOU know, he went down in flames, in the FIRST ROUND, in EIGHT of them.

He never led his team to the best record. His high win season was 58 wins, and he only had four other years of 50+ wins. He had SEVERAL miserable post-seasons, too. And his best statistical post-season, came in a four game series in which his team was blown out 3-1...and again, in the FIRST ROUND.

His statistical titles are not even anything extraordinary. He NEVER led the NBA in scoring, and NEVER scored more 27.8 ppg in a season. He NEVER led the NBA in FG%, and his HIGH season, of .534, came in his ROOKIE season, in an NBA that had the highest FG%, .492, in it's HISTORY. He won two rebounding titles (and barely), and he was even outrebounded by Barkley, when they were paired together, by FOUR per game. He won three block titles, but he was not even close to the best shot-blocker of HIS era (Mark Eaton, with no athleticism at all, won FOUR.)

The REALITY was, Hakeem was NOT an "immortal" type player. He was a VERY GOOD player, and has a CASE as a Top-10 player of all-time. That is IT.

Let's stop over-rating the hell out of the man.

And, his career PALES in comparison to Wilt's. Again, this is NOT debatable. In EVERY category, Wilt BLOWS Hakeem AWAY. Scoring, rebounding, FG%, passing, defense, and shot blocks. Even in the post-season, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt just CRUSHES Hakeem's BEST scoring seasons.

And Wilt won more MVPs, and he and Russell were neck-and-neck in the MVP balloting all 10 seasons in which they were in the league together.

Team success? Wilt carried TWELVE teams to the Conference Finals, and was only eliminated in the first round, ONE times (and in a series in which he hung a 37 ppg 23 rpg series, while his inept teammates shot .380.) Wilt took FAR inferior rosters to within an eyelash of beating Russell's Celtics on TWO occasions, and his teammates were AWFUL in both of them. And Wilt had SIX post-seasons in which he had virtually NO help. How does the man ever get to one Final, and two ECF's game seven losses by 2 and 1 point, with teammates that collectively shot .382, .380, .354, .352, .352, and .332?

Chamberlain also played on FOUR teams that had the best record in the league. He anchored FOUR teams that won 60+ games, including TWO that went 68-13 and 69-13, and those two teams OVERWHELMED their HOF-laden challengers en route to a title, and in which Wilt was CLEARLY their best player.

And I am getting tired of reading about Hakeem supposedly having more skills. Wilt was certainly more skilled than Shaq, and we know that Shaq pretty much abused Hakeem. And Wilt was considerably taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, and more athletic than Hakeem.

I will concede that a PRIME Shaq and a PRIME Wilt would be very close. But no way does Hakeem enter that conversation.

[millwad]

Again pure nonsense by Jlauber.
Stop overrating Wilt's statistical prime, he didn't win shit and he dropped in the playoffs in terms of stats and when he finally won it was on way less impressive play than what Hakeem did during his prime when he actually WON. Hakeem won during his statistical prime, WILT DIDN'T..

No one ranks Wilt's runs over Hakeem's, but you..

And stop the copy and paste job and irrelevant crap, way too much bs to respond to..

[RRR3]

Again pure nonsense by Jlauber.
Stop overrating Wilt's statistical prime, he didn't win shit and he dropped in the playoffs in terms of stats and when he finally won it was on way less impressive play than what Hakeem did during his prime when he actually WON. Hakeem won during his statistical prime, WILT DIDN'T..

No one ranks Wilt's runs over Hakeem's, but you..

And stop the copy and paste job and irrelevant crap, way too much bs to respond to..

Wilt's playoff numbers look lower career-wise because a lot of his longest playoff runs came after he was out of his prime. Stop trolling jesus.

[jlauber]

prime shaq and prime hakeem>prime wilt. dont insult them putting wilt in the same class. wilt is in the class as a prime 01 matt geiger

Go back to playing your "Backyard Basketball" video game please.

[millwad]

Go back to playing your "Backyard Basketball" video game please.

Go back to wanking in front of some Wilt articles, you ph4ggot.

[jlauber]

Again pure nonsense by Jlauber.
Stop overrating Wilt's statistical prime, he didn't win shit and he dropped in the playoffs in terms of stats and when he finally won it was on way less impressive play than what Hakeem did during his prime when he actually WON. Hakeem won during his statistical prime, WILT DIDN'T..

No one ranks Wilt's runs over Hakeem's, but you..

And stop the copy and paste job and irrelevant crap, way too much bs to respond to..

How about you answer me this...

WHY did Hakeem only win ONE MVP award (and in a year in which the REAL best player took the year off)? Why did he come in second, ONE time? And why did he come in fourth on only two more occasions? And why did Hakeem fail to crack the Top-10 in the MVP balloting in NINE of his 18 seasons?

WHY? Why was he SELDOM he considered among the top-4 players of HIS era? And why was he not even considered among the top-10 players in HIS era, in over HALF of his career?

What was it that YOU witnessed, that virtually EVERYONE else who saw Hakeem play in HIS era, did NOT see????

[Fazotronic]

...

[millwad]

Wilt's playoff numbers look lower career-wise because a lot of his longest playoff runs came after he was out of his prime. Stop trolling jesus.

Buhu, so lets remove his '72 season when he won his 2nd title as the fourth option on offense. Lousy argument.

[BlackJoker23]

prime shaq in wilts era and the nba is lockedout forever

[RRR3]

Buhu, so lets remove his '72 season when he won his 2nd title as the fourth option on offense. Lousy argument.

Who gives a shit? He was way past his prime and still the best defender on that team. Wilt is so goddamn underrated on ISH. Jlauber exaggerates Wilt, I'll admit, but that may be because he's really frustrated with people like you underrating the **** out of him (Hakeem better than Wilt? )

[jlauber]

...

Looks like Wilt dominating Love, Bogut, Milicic, and Lee.