Is Elgin Baylor a Top 3 SF ever

[Deuce Bigalow]

Havlicek and Baylor are much better than LeBron at this point. And this is coming from a LeBron fan.

What about rick Barry?

[Kiarip]

Rick Barry is 4th after Bird-Erving-Baylor

[Kiarip]

double post

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bird and Lebron are locked in at 1 and 2 on my small forwards list right now. I'd go with Dr. J at number 3, though it's pretty close after the top 2 for me.

[oolalaa]

Bird and Lebron are locked in at 1 and 2 on my small forwards list right now. I'd go with Dr. J at number 3, though it's pretty close after the top 2 for me.

Really? Did you not watch the finals, aka the biggest choke job in nba history? and would you really rather lebrons 8 years in the league over julius ervings 16?

Granted, when it's all said and done, lebron should be a lock for top 2 but it's too soon at the moment...

1. Bird
2. Erving
3. Havlicek
4. Baylor
5. James

[ShaqAttack3234]

Really? Did you not watch the finals? aka the biggest choke job in nba history? and would you really rather lebrons 8 years in the league over julius ervings 16?

Yes I did, and it hurt my opinion of Lebron, but 1 series isn't enough to drop him that much for me. I see Lebron as superior in every aspect of the game to Dr. J except for rebounding.

And you mention Dr. J's 16 years, well, what he did the last 3-4 years of his career? A player's prime is easily the most important thing to me. 8 years is enough for me to get a good idea of how good Lebron is.

Lebron's peak(2009), might make him top 10 going by peaks. He's not top 10 in general, but that says a lot to me.

[PTB Fan]

What about rick Barry?

Even over him. Rick was never considered as the best, had a good peak in which he won it all, spent too many years of his prime in the ABA, was a better offensive player (not by far) and has advantages in scoring (but LeBron is great at this too)... shooting is the only comfortable advantage he has over him and performance in the Finals.

Still, i'd rather have LeBron than Barry

[oolalaa]

Yes I did, and it hurt my opinion of Lebron, but 1 series isn't enough to drop him that much for me. I see Lebron as superior in every aspect of the game to Dr. J except for rebounding.

And you mention Dr. J's 16 years, well, what he did the last 3-4 years of his career? A player's prime is easily the most important thing to me. 8 years is enough for me to get a good idea of how good Lebron is.

Lebron's peak(2009), might make him top 10 going by peaks. He's not top 10 in general, but that says a lot to me.

Can you imagine if lebron had jordans or magics or birds or kobes insane competitveness and desire to crush anyone who comes in the way of him winning?! It's scary just to think about it.

He might be the most talented all round player the league has ever seen; 6"9, 270 pounds of pure muscle, 40 inch vertical, 4.3 forty, gets to the line at will, good shooter, great playmaker, very good rebounder, very good defender, can play all 5 positions, underrated 'in the clutch' (yes, i still believe so, in spite his disappearing act in the finals). I was in the lebron >>>> kobe camp from 07' all the way until this years finals (and i still am incidentally but only because kobe has slipped so much). You're right, he was insanely good in 2009.

BUT there is clearly something missing. What use is it to get to the finals and not deliver the goods? Thats why the finals were so horrific. He did the hard work! He almost single handidly closed out boston and chicago, who were both superior teams to dallas! The series was there to be won! All he had to do was score some points in the 4th quarters!

But he didn't. To me, it's not just a case of - "well, he got to the finals all by himself. It was only one series. Give him a break". It's a black mark that should be held against him and something i cannot excuse.

Maybe, he's scared of winning. Maybe he doesn't care enough about winning. Who knows. I will consider him overrated and a perennial underachiever until he does 'win'...

[L.Kizzle]

Bird and Lebron are locked in at 1 and 2 on my small forwards list right now. I'd go with Dr. J at number 3, though it's pretty close after the top 2 for me.

WHAT! The only thing Bron has over Elgin in his 1st 8 seasons are 2 MVPs and who's gonna win MVPs with Wilt and Russell in the league? Match em up their first 8 seasons and Bron can't get with Baylor.

[goldenboy_smith]

Nice But Not Enough Fan Base

[HylianNightmare]

no

[Kurosawa0]

Top 5:

1. Larry Bird
2. Dr. J
3. LeBron James
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Scottie Pippen

[D-Wade316]

Mine:
1. Erving
2. Bird
3. Baylor
4. Lebron
5. Havlicek
6. Pippen

[G.O.A.T]

I feel like Bird and Doctor J separated themselves from the pack with their combination of individual and team success as well as the incredible legend that follows each of their names today.

That said Baylor's chief competition for the third spot among small forwards would be the following: John Havlicek, LeBron James, Scottie Pippen and Rick Barry.

I've stated it before but to reiterate, as great as James has been for the past eight seasons, for him to move above players like Pippen, Havlicek, Barry and Baylor he'll need to win a title or extend his career and remain a key figure for a contender. And while he likely will do one or both of those things and I suspect one day he will be remembered in the same regard as Bird and Doc, we aren't there yet. I have James at #7 all-time for the position.

Scottie Pippen has a case for the #3 spot, after all, Bird and Doc are the only guys at the position to win an MVP and win a title as the man. So while Pippen never assumed that alpha role that the other four guys in the discussion pretty much made a career of, he played an ideal second fiddle to the greatest player of his generation winning six titles. Pippen was essential to the Bulls success and the continuing evolution of the wing position. He's the best defender the position has seen and a good notch above all but Hondo in this debate. The case against him, almost unfairly is in the numbers. His seven all-star and all-NBA appearances are a good bit below Barry (12/9), Havlicek (13/11) and Baylor (11/10). Baylor and Barry peaked as over 35 per game scorer and averaged 27+ for their primes. Havlicek too was a 20+ scorer and even got to 30 a game in the early seventies. Pippen averaged 18 a night for his prime and never more than 22 a game. Still those numbers alone are not what puts Pippen at #6 on my list. It's the difference between a guy who can make your franchise a contender every year and a guy who never showed that ability. While I keep Pippen above James for now because of his ability to finish in the postseason, he never reached the peak level the rest of those guys had.

I have long thought of Rick Barry as underrated. He was the first guy not named Wilt to lead the NBA in scoring after 1960. He was the first guy to jump to the ABA and be forced to sit out a year. He was the only superstar to win a title in the 70's without a legit sidekick. That last part is what elevates him above Pippen and James. Had Barry's team lost to the Bulls in game 7 of the WCF in '75 or lost to the Bullets in the finals like they were supposed to, he'd be behind James and the player historically most comparable. Barry came close in '67 when no one expected to as he and Nate Thurmond brought the Warriors to the NBA Finals and lost in six. His Oakland Oaks ABA team was on the path to the 1970 title with him leading the way, then he was injured and they won it without him. In 1976 he threw a hissy-fit in the WCF against the Suns and the Warriors were upset with the title in their sights. Barry would have been remembered as a sour-puss who never got along good enough with his teammates to win a title. But he got the job done and showed for a moment he could do what every great player aspires to do and inevitably is judged by. He could lead his team to a title. He was amazing in game six of the '75 WCF carrying the Warriors to a win, he got hot in the second half, scored 14 in the 4th quarter and scored or assisted on the Warriors last 16 points in game seven as they advanced. In the finals he scored 36 including the tying and winning free throws in a 92-91 win. He followed that with 38 in game three and finished the series averaging thirty points and five assists for the new World Champions. He is #5 on my list.

That leaves Elgin and Hondo. Havlicek has the rings to be sure and you could for the most part consider him the alpha on the '74 team. Cowens got more MVP love for those squads, but that was sort of a positional thing. Centers owned the award until Doc stole one in '81. Also Havlicek was the best, if not most important player on the '69 team and at worst the #2 guy on the '68 team. He was crucial to the Celtics winning four more titles and for the most part never did anything that didn't improve his teams chances to win. Hondo evolved with basketball. He started his career in 1963, still the old NBA with the black and white feel. For his first seven seasons he shot around 40-42% from the field. For the second half of his hall of fame career he was around 44-46%. His percentages jumped right along with the league average. When his career began Dolph Schayes was in the NBA, when it ended Danny Schayes was in college. Havlicek is maybe the greatest complementary player of all-time. The rare combination of large enough talent to be an alpha and small enough ego to just be one of the guys allows Hondo to play a vital role on a contender in any era of the NBA. He has more all-NBA selections than Barry, Baylor, Pippen or James. More all-defensive nods than anyone of them either. More all-star games, more rings than all of them combined. Still he's #4 on my list.

I do believe Elgin Baylor is the third greatest small forward ever. For none of those other players revolutionized the sport, their position and their franchise like he did. Baylor was the first high flyer, the first super athletic wing player. A guy who could score like no one else in the game before him and in the style that nearly all after him have pursued. And as nice as all that is, it comes with results. Baylor has the best numbers of anyone in the group, even when adjusted for era, the idea that he could finish in the top five in scoring and rebounding for each of his first five years is insane. In 1963 he was in the top six in points, rebounds and assists. That five year prime is in my opinion the greatest ever by a forward. The Lakers went from the verge of folding to an annual title contender and the type of player teams drafted at forward would never be the same. Let's see someone else top that.

Now the case against Baylor, and why he has dropped from the ranks of West and Oscar where he always used to rank is what he didn't do.

He didn't win a title and he didn't win an MVP. The explanation is simple. Every year of Baylor's prime, not just his peak coincided with the prime of Wilt, Russell or both. He'd have multiple rings and MVP trophies without the presence of the two greatest big men of all-time. Baylor played in nine conference finals. More than Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Oscar, Pettit and anyone besides Hondo in this conversation. Baylor led his team to three NBA finals and once to overtime of game seven. He also played in four more finals totaling seven for his career. More than all those previously mentioned as well as one more than MJ or Wilt. Point is, while he never won, he was always close.

I'll take Baylor, he was too great an all-around player to pass up and more than any other small forward besides Bird, he could take over a game in the blink of an eye. 61 in the Finals, 71 in a game before Wilt did it, almost 40-20 for a season without practicing. We're never going to see those things again. A lot of great players will come short of a title, it's going to take a hell of an effort to come closer than Baylor did without winning one.

[winwin]

I feel like Bird and Doctor J separated themselves from the pack with their combination of individual and team success as well as the incredible legend that follows each of their names today.

That said Baylor's chief competition for the third spot among small forwards would be the following: John Havlicek, LeBron James, Scottie Pippen and Rick Barry.

I've stated it before but to reiterate, as great as James has been for the past eight seasons, for him to move above players like Pippen, Havlicek, Barry and Baylor he'll need to win a title or extend his career and remain a key figure for a contender. And while he likely will do one or both of those things and I suspect one day he will be remembered in the same regard as Bird and Doc, we aren't there yet. I have James at #7 all-time for the position.

Scottie Pippen has a case for the #3 spot, after all, Bird and Doc are the only guys at the position to win an MVP and win a title as the man. So while Pippen never assumed that alpha role that the other four guys in the discussion pretty much made a career of, he played an ideal second fiddle to the greatest player of his generation winning six titles. Pippen was essential to the Bulls success and the continuing evolution of the wing position. He's the best defender the position has seen and a good notch above all but Hondo in this debate. The case against him, almost unfairly is in the numbers. His seven all-star and all-NBA appearances are a good bit below Barry (12/9), Havlicek (13/11) and Baylor (11/10). Baylor and Barry peaked as over 35 per game scorer and averaged 27+ for their primes. Havlicek too was a 20+ scorer and even got to 30 a game in the early seventies. Pippen averaged 18 a night for his prime and never more than 22 a game. Still those numbers alone are not what puts Pippen at #6 on my list. It's the difference between a guy who can make your franchise a contender every year and a guy who never showed that ability. While I keep Pippen above James for now because of his ability to finish in the postseason, he never reached the peak level the rest of those guys had.

I have long thought of Rick Barry as underrated. He was the first guy not named Wilt to lead the NBA in scoring after 1960. He was the first guy to jump to the ABA and be forced to sit out a year. He was the only superstar to win a title in the 70's without a legit sidekick. That last part is what elevates him above Pippen and James. Had Barry's team lost to the Bulls in game 7 of the WCF in '75 or lost to the Bullets in the finals like they were supposed to, he'd be behind James and the player historically most comparable. Barry came close in '67 when no one expected to as he and Nate Thurmond brought the Warriors to the NBA Finals and lost in six. His Oakland Oaks ABA team was on the path to the 1970 title with him leading the way, then he was injured and they won it without him. In 1976 he threw a hissy-fit in the WCF against the Suns and the Warriors were upset with the title in their sights. Barry would have been remembered as a sour-puss who never got along good enough with his teammates to win a title. But he got the job done and showed for a moment he could do what every great player aspires to do and inevitably is judged by. He could lead his team to a title. He was amazing in game six of the '75 WCF carrying the Warriors to a win, he got hot in the second half, scored 14 in the 4th quarter and scored or assisted on the Warriors last 16 points in game seven as they advanced. In the finals he scored 36 including the tying and winning free throws in a 92-91 win. He followed that with 38 in game three and finished the series averaging thirty points and five assists for the new World Champions. He is #5 on my list.

That leaves Elgin and Hondo. Havlicek has the rings to be sure and you could for the most part consider him the alpha on the '74 team. Cowens got more MVP love for those squads, but that was sort of a positional thing. Centers owned the award until Doc stole one in '81. Also Havlicek was the best, if not most important player on the '69 team and at worst the #2 guy on the '68 team. He was crucial to the Celtics winning four more titles and for the most part never did anything that didn't improve his teams chances to win. Hondo evolved with basketball. He started his career in 1963, still the old NBA with the black and white feel. For his first seven seasons he shot around 40-42% from the field. For the second half of his hall of fame career he was around 44-46%. His percentages jumped right along with the league average. When his career began Dolph Schayes was in the NBA, when it ended Danny Schayes was in college. Havlicek is maybe the greatest complementary player of all-time. The rare combination of large enough talent to be an alpha and small enough ego to just be one of the guys allows Hondo to play a vital role on a contender in any era of the NBA. He has more all-NBA selections than Barry, Baylor, Pippen or James. More all-defensive nods than anyone of them either. More all-star games, more rings than all of them combined. Still he's #4 on my list.

I do believe Elgin Baylor is the third greatest small forward ever. For none of those other players revolutionized the sport, their position and their franchise like he did. Baylor was the first high flyer, the first super athletic wing player. A guy who could score like no one else in the game before him and in the style that nearly all after him have pursued. And as nice as all that is, it comes with results. Baylor has the best numbers of anyone in the group, even when adjusted for era, the idea that he could finish in the top five in scoring and rebounding for each of his first five years is insane. In 1963 he was in the top six in points, rebounds and assists. That five year prime is in my opinion the greatest ever by a forward. The Lakers went from the verge of folding to an annual title contender and the type of player teams drafted at forward would never be the same. Let's see someone else top that.

Now the case against Baylor, and why he has dropped from the ranks of West and Oscar where he always used to rank is what he didn't do.

He didn't win a title and he didn't win an MVP. The explanation is simple. Every year of Baylor's prime, not just his peak coincided with the prime of Wilt, Russell or both. He'd have multiple rings and MVP trophies without the presence of the two greatest big men of all-time. Baylor played in nine conference finals. More than Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Oscar, Pettit and anyone besides Hondo in this conversation. Baylor led his team to three NBA finals and once to overtime of game seven. He also played in four more finals totaling seven for his career. More than all those previously mentioned as well as one more than MJ or Wilt. Point is, while he never won, he was always close.

I'll take Baylor, he was too great an all-around player to pass up and more than any other small forward besides Bird, he could take over a game in the blink of an eye. 61 in the Finals, 71 in a game before Wilt did it, almost 40-20 for a season without practicing. We're never going to see those things again. A lot of great players will come short of a title, it's going to take a hell of an effort to come closer than Baylor did without winning one.

so your list is:
1. Larry Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Rick Barry

?