Jordan(91-93) vs. Shaq(00-02) [in NBA Finals]

[OldSchoolBBall]

Very close. The two greatest performers in Finals history imo. I give Jordan's three-peat the edge because he did it against better competition (legends like Magic, Drexler, and Barkley vs. Jalen Rose, AI, and Kidd), had to exert himself defensively more in said Finals (guarding Magic and Drexler in consecutive Finals), and was also the go-to guy down the stretch of every game, whereas Kobe tended to be that guy for the Lakers. Statistically it's very close, but MJ's ability to close out games, greater ability to raise his game on command when needed, and intangibles make me give him the edge.

[32Dayz]

whereas Kobe tended to be that guy for the Lakers. Statistically it's very close, but MJ's ability to close out games, greater ability to raise his game on command when needed, and intangibles make me give him the edge.

No he wasn't, and he certainly wasn't ever "that guy" in the Finalz.
I see no evidence to say Jordan was better at raising his game on command.
Shaq raised his game for the entire playoffs "on command" and never lowered it especially in the Finalz where he played his best.
Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.

I dont think his competition was that much better when you put it in that sort of perspective.

H2H Shaq went against Mutombo and the #1 Defensive team in the Sixers.
H2H Shaq proved himself against Hakeem, DRob/Duncan, Mourning, Wallace Twins and on and on.
He was also defended with 2, 3 sometimes even 4 or 5 players.
Jordan was never defended as heavily as Shaq was those seasons.
I think using the opponents as a reason to say Jordan was better is silly because Shaq proved he could dominate against pretty much any opponent or any team.

[rodman91]

Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.

Magic was 31 years old.Finished that season as good as his career numbers. 20-13-7 season.

Drexler was only one years old older than Jordan. He had 25-7-7 season that year.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I see no evidence to say Jordan was better at raising his game on command.

If you think that Shaq could raise his game on command as easily or frequently as Jordan, you're crazy. Jordan would routinely score 15-20+ points in the 4th (and sometimes in the final 6-8 minutes) to pull out wins. Shaq was incredible, but MJ was better IN THAT RESPECT. Jordan's very POSITION allows him to be a more dynamic and unstoppable player late in games (to say nothing of his FT% edge).

Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.

Magic was 31 - hardly old. He also finished 2nd in MVP voting that year. Drexler was 29, had finished second in MVP voting, and had one of his top 2 seasons that year. Past his prime? No.

I dont think his competition was that much better when you put it in that sort of perspective.

Not only was Jordan's INDIVIDUAL comp better than what Shaq saw in the '00-'02 Finals -- Magic, Drexler, Majerle/KJ (these were the guys he primarily guarded during that three-peat) versus a last-legs Rik Smits at age 33 (he retired after that season), Mutombo, and McCullough -- but the quality of the Lakers/Blazers/Suns was WORLDS beyond the Pacers/Sixers/Nets. Night and day. So yeah, his competition was significantly better. Jordan beat legends and guarded legends. Shaq? Not so much.

He was also defended with 2, 3 sometimes even 4 or 5 players.
Jordan was never defended as heavily as Shaq was those seasons.
I think using the opponents as a reason to say Jordan was better is silly because Shaq proved he could dominate against pretty much any opponent or any team.

I never denied that Shaq could and did dominate most teams, but we have to look at what's in front of us. And if you think Jordan was never guarded that heavily, you should rewatch the 1991 Finals and pay special attention to how 3 players would collapse every time Jordan even attempted to come within 15-16 feet of the basket, and how the entire team watched him. That said, I wouldn't argue with the statement that Shaq was defended more heavily, but that's also offset by the fact that he never had to take a shot outside of 10 feet, making it easier to dominate.

[Fatal9]

lol @ Drexler in his best season being "past his prime". not sure if serious.

[32Dayz]

Fair enough I was wrong about the competition.

I knew Drexler was still good but I didnt think he was in his Prime and I said Charles was a very strong opponent.

Either way I stand by my opinion that Shaq has proved himself against the toughest opponents and when you consider how much defensive attention he had to deal with it wasnt any easier for him to Dominate then it was for Jordan.

Mutombo was the DPOY and one of the best defensive C's ever and Shaq reduced him to a skid mark.

[Odinn]

I think Jordan's was more impressive. Not only did he put up those stats but did so against the guys who finished #2, #2 and #1 in MVP voting those years with the last year being without having HCA. Not only that but he was able to set the playoff record in scoring for a finals.

I believe Jordan wins this because:

1. Had the higher PER in the season, playoffs and finals
2. Had the higher win shares in the season and playoffs

MJ in the season = 20.30 Win Shares. Shaq = 18.65
MJ in the season = 31.63 PER, Shaq = 30.65


MJ in the playoffs = 4.77 Win Share, Shaq = 4.67
MJ in the playoffs = 32.04 PER, Shaq = 30.45


MJ in the finals = 31.5 PER and Shaq = 31.1

You showed up again with some crap which called advanced stat?

PER claims Jordan's production in 1998 Finals was almost as good as in 1991 Finals, which wasn't.

Lastly; in 2001 mvp race Shaq was 3rd and he defeated Allen Iverson&Tim Duncan which were top2 in that race. And same goes for 2002. Tim Duncan and Jason Kidd were ahead of Shaq in mvp race and Shaq defeated both of the top2, again.

You can say Jordan faced better competition in the finals but your first paragraph, again;

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's really tough to choose. I might go with Jordan, but both sides have arguments.

Jordan did have to guard much tougher opponents and faced much better teams(though he had better overall casts outside of probably 2001 with how Shaq's cast was playing that run).

Shaq was doubled more, though and had less support in the 2000 finals than Jordan did in any of his due to how much the Lakers themselves relied on 2 players, the fact that 2000 Kobe wasn't quite as good as '91-'93 Pippen and that Kobe was injured essentially missing 2 games and not playing well outside of game 4.

Shaq also faced better defensive teams, particularly the '01 Sixers, but there is a difference between facing teams led by Magic, Drexler and Barkley 3 consecutive seasons(particularly Magic and Barkley) and Miller, Iverson and Kidd.

In the end, they ended up with similar statistical feats, but Jordan never faced a team anywhere near as overmatched as the '02 Nets in the finals. Part of it is personal preference I guess regarding perimeter players vs big men.

Magic was old and Drexler was past his Prime.
Barkley was a legit opponent though.

Why do you even bother commenting on this if you proved you have no idea what you're talking about? Drexler had his best season in '92 and Magic had at worst, his 5th best season in '91 and was a better, more complete player than when he won his first 3 rings, which is when he made a lot of his legacy.

If you think that Shaq could raise his game on command as easily or frequently as Jordan, you're crazy. Jordan would routinely score 15-20+ points in the 4th (and sometimes in the final 6-8 minutes) to pull out wins.

This is 100% true, though it is worth pointing out that Shaq averaged 11.5 ppg in the 4th quarters during the 2000 finals. Game 1 in particular impressed me as he turned a 6 point game to start the quarter to a 15 point game with 3 minutes remaining by scoring 12 points and creating quite a few shots during that time before sitting down after the game became a blowout.

Your point still stands, just pointing out that 11.5 ppg average for 4th quarters in a finals is pretty impressive for anyone, much less a center like Shaq.

versus a last-legs Rik Smits at age 33 (he retired after that season)

Actually, he primarily matched up with Dale Davis that series.

[32Dayz]

Why do you even bother commenting on this if you proved you have no idea what you're talking about? Drexler had his best season in '92 and Magic had at worst, his 5th best season in '91 and was a better, more complete player than when he won his first 3 rings, which is when he made a lot of his legacy.

Read the whole thread before jumping to conclusions.

I already admitted I made a mistake when I said that.

Anyway you made some good points in your last post so i'll leave it be.

[32Dayz]

Shaq averaged 11.5 ppg in the 4th quarters during the 2000 finals. Game 1 in particular impressed me as he turned a 6 point game to start the quarter to a 15 point game with 3 minutes remaining by scoring 12 points and creating quite a few shots during that time before sitting down after the game became a blowout.

Your point still stands, just pointing out that 11.5 ppg average for 4th quarters in a finals is pretty impressive for anyone, much less a center like Shaq.

Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3

[Lebron23]

Jordan and Shaq are the 2 greatest Finals performer ever.

[arifgokcen]

I haven't seen a player doubled tripled quadrupled as much as shaq.Even though i would pick jordan because of his ability to perform in crunch time,i think what shaq did is a lot more impressive.He consistently scored on at least two and a lot of time three players.

To understand how dominant shaq was during his prime

[Odinn]

Jordan and Shaq are the 2 greatest Finals performer ever.

Shaq's NBA Finals averages (6 appearances - 30 games);
28.8 ppg / 13.1 rpg / 3.4 apg / 2.1 bpg / 0.5 spg / 3.4 tpg
60.2% fg / 48.4% ft

Shaq's NBA Finals averages as a Laker (4 appearances - 20 games);
33.6 ppg / 14.1 rpg / 3.1 apg / 2.4 bpg / 0.6 spg / 3.1 tpg
60.2% fg / 50.3% ft


Jordan's NBA Finals averages (6 appearances - 35 games);
33.6 ppg / 6.0 rpg / 6.0 apg / 1.8 spg / 0.7 bpg / 2.8 tpg
48.1% fg / 80.6% ft

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan had comparable/superior production, but did it against much better teams, and did it to teams which had top 25 players on it (Magic, Barkley, Drexler); on top of that, he played sterling defense on legends in Magic and Drexler and exerted way more energy than Shaq on that end. He also obviously has the edge in terms of the ability to close out games and to raise his game on command. How would MJ's offensive numbers look if he wasn't guarding Magic or Drexler or being EVERYWHERE on defense in the 1991 finals?

Jordan in the 1991 Finals could have posted even better averages than he did - and it's already perhaps the greatest Finals series of all time. Think about that. Jordan played so under control that series, and didn't dominate the ball at all. Ditto for 1992, where he actually sat out for nearly 7 minutes of the first half during his first half 35-point barrage - dude could have had 43+ points that half easily.

Jordan has at least a slight edge over Shaq here.

[IGOTGAME]

Watching Shaq growing up, I didn't really find the majority of his finals performances impressive due to the competition. Imo, the teams he played against in the Finals were so weak that I judged him more so on how he played against San Antonio and Sacramento. The Finals were won in the Western Conference, playing the East was just a formality(there was really no point in watching some of Nets series)