How many players in NBA history were the undisputed best player in the league?

[HurricaneKid]

2006 Heat championship was a fluke and a travesty, which is why noone proclaimed Wade the best player after the Heat won despite his finals performance and its not talked about that much nowadays. The Heat advanced to the finals because: 1) East was generally weak; and 2) Shaq played almost like his old self against Detroit, going something like 28/16/5/5 in the final game.

In 2006 finals, Shaq was actually ignored on offense by Wade as much as he was by Kobe in 2004 finals. The difference was that Wade just played better, Avery Johnson did a horrible coaching job, and Wade got many phantom calls - including the overtime call in game 5 which decided the series.

I actually pretty strongly agree with a lot of this. Except the part where Wade froze out Shaq. Its freezing out if you aren't nigh impossible to stop (given the officials not allowing Dal to defend Wade). Meanwhile, Shaq was shooting 28% from the line or something absurd. Given the way that series went down I think it was totally appropriate for Wade to shoot 23FGA/gm. I feel very differently about Kobe shooting 24fga/gm two years prior.

[NugzHeat3]

Right....I am just going to ignore you since you aren't worth the time.

NugzHeat3 and ShaqAttack, who do you guys think was better between Kobe and Lebron in '08-'09?? I would like your analysis on that. I think of you guys can agree that neither one or the other was the undisputed or clearly the best right? I assume both of you will have Lebron over Kobe that season but please explain why.

I think LeBron was better. I can't really criticize him much for that year. He overachieved in the season and had a great playoff run. He didn't get much help vs Orlando though I don't think that series is as dominant as some people consider it.

For one, I thought he could've made more of an impact defensively. They assigned him to Alston and made him sag off of him and the thing is LeBron didn't make much of an impact on help defense. He didn't really bother Dwight though it was hard to do so because of how deep he was setting up but I don't remember him pressuring the ball to take time off the clock. Kobe's help defense on Dwight was a good bit better and often stripped him or forced a deflection though Kobe had better initial defenders.

He also wasn't that good in some of the fourth quarters like missing five free throws in game three and a whole bunch of turnovers in game four late in the game. Admittedly, fatigue was a factor because they ran a lot of offense through him and he didn't get much help. Game six was kind of weak, two points in the fourth.

One thing I thought was that Mike Brown made a mistake by not giving Ben Wallace heavy minutes because he was the only guy who I thought could hold his own vs Dwight but I guess he wanted to spread the floor offensively.

I don't blame him for the loss though. I believe there's a certain margin of error allowed when one isn't really getting any help.

I don't really have a problem with you siding Kobe though because the reality is Lebron is pretty much the same guy with a mental block until proven otherwise.

I don't think he encountered a situation like last year's finals in 2009 and I can't guarantee if his 2009 self plays much better in the same situation because I think it's more of a mental block or better put a lack of confidence than anything else. I'm aware of his clutch numbers in the season that year before anyone puts them out there.

It's a trend throughout his career in some crucial series. He was more explosive in 2009 though so he'd at least pressure the defense more. Was a lot quicker off the dribble and more agile in general.

[triangleoffense]

Off of the top of my head I would say these players in these seasons were the undisputed best players in the league

'94 Hakeem
'84 Bird
'00 Shaq
'01 Shaq
'03 Duncan
'91, '92, '93, '96 MJ (maybe more, but I am not sure about undisputed)
'87 Magic

Did you not see Jordan play or was his game just erased from your memory? Jordan was easily the undisputed player of the league from 88' till 97 if not 98. And yes I remember the hiatus he took in 94-95 but even when he was playing baseball he was still the best player in the league.

In 96 Jordan averaged 30/6/4 and the Bulls won 72 games. In 97 Jordan averaged 29/6/4 and the Bulls won 69 games (yet Jordan somehow lost the MVP to Malone). What's funny is that Jordan won the unanimous MVP in 96 with a 72-10 record and the next season while averaging near exactly the same numbers (29/6/4 compared to 30/6/4) and winning 97% of the games he did in that historic 96 season (69-13) he somehow lost one of the closest MVP balloting ever to Malone who's team went 64-18. 72-10 and 69-13 for two consecutive seasons by the way is the closest to perfection any team is going to see in the NBA for as long as i can imagine.

[NugzHeat3]

Great find, regarding '98. I agree with you to some extent, he did focus a little more defensively in 2000 and I do believe he improved his passing under Phil who emphasized it a lot. But he was a really good passer from '95 on and in that Seattle series you mentioned, you can see how much his passing out of double teams and his shot blocking impacted the team. That was one of his best, another difference in 2000 is that he gave more effort on the boards, and just generally worked harder.

But as an individual scorer, I think Shaq was as good as ever in '98 and his athleticism/skills were near their peak. I might say that was the year he was the best outside of the first 2 titles.

The '98 WCSF were one of Shaq's best series, both statistically(31/10/4/4, 63 FG%) and as far as impact.

Yeah, I've seen Karl's statements, he actually also said he'd take Shaq over anyone in the league that year, and I'd agree.

As far as the system in '98 vs '00, well the most offense was much less refined, it was more stagnant. O'Neal would have more time to back his way in and pass out of doubles, while in the triangle, Phil wanted Shaq to look to score quicker with better position to start and if not, become a passer.



I don't remember talk of that nature at all. I never remember anyone comparing Wade's help to Shaq's in LA. And I disagree that he had less help than Shaq did every year in LA, especially '99 or Shaq's first title in 2000.



I don't live in LA, in fact, I've never even been there. I've lived in NY my entire life.




I do have Lebron and I disagree that Kobe was a better defender than Lebron on a consistent basis in '09. '09 is also a year where Lebron's mentality doesn't bother me because he played out of his mind vs Orlando, better than Kobe did, imo. I guess the negatives are his game 6 and turnovers late in game 4, but that's asking a lot when he averaged 39/8/8 and everything else went wrong for Cleveland.

His individual dominance was at it's peak as well as elevating his team, and he didn't have the puzzling disappearing acts he did in '10 and '11 to make me question him. His shooting and defense really improved that season to go along with his passing and size/athleticism.

Phil got him to focus more though. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to impact the game in a similar way in the same circumstances.

I guess what I'm saying is the ability is there but for other reasons he wasn't quite as impactful.

[NugzHeat3]

Did you not see Jordan play or was his game just erased from your memory? Jordan was easily the undisputed player of the league from 88' till 97 if not 98. And yes I remember the hiatus he took in 94-95 but even when he was playing baseball he was still the best player in the league.

In 96 Jordan averaged 30/6/4 and the Bulls won 72 games. In 97 Jordan averaged 29/6/4 and the Bulls won 69 games (yet Jordan somehow lost the MVP to Malone). What's funny is that Jordan won the unanimous MVP in 96 with a 72-10 record and the next season while averaging near exactly the same numbers (29/6/4 compared to 30/6/4) and winning 97% of the games he did in that historic 96 season (69-13) he somehow lost one of the closest MVP balloting ever to Malone who's team went 64-18. 72-10 and 69-13 for two consecutive seasons by the way is the closest to perfection any team is going to see in the NBA for as long as i can imagine.

That's horse.

[kizut1659]

I actually pretty strongly agree with a lot of this. Except the part where Wade froze out Shaq. Its freezing out if you aren't nigh impossible to stop (given the officials not allowing Dal to defend Wade). Meanwhile, Shaq was shooting 28% from the line or something absurd. Given the way that series went down I think it was totally appropriate for Wade to shoot 23FGA/gm. I feel very differently about Kobe shooting 24fga/gm two years prior.

Yeah, you have a point. Because Wade was playing well AND officials were giving him phantom calls, there was no reason for him to pass to Shaq. I guess my point was in response to a previous poster who argued that unlike Kobe, Wade made his teammaters better. My point is that he didn't in 2006 - the Heat won not because Wade is a great teammate or anything but because he played well, they got lucky, and the reffs helped them.

[pauk]

What is the undisputed best?

A player who literally everybody said was the best a specific year? Then i believe only Michael Jordan has that honor... nobody would even dare dispute Michael Jordan in the 90s... any other player in history you could dispute...

A player who MOST would say was the best a specific year? Very many... every year.. Today its Lebron for example... but not undisputed... would be undisputed i guess only if he won MVP + DPOY + FMVP + All-StarMVP + 3PT Champ + Scoring Champ + Dunk Champ + Championship + was the most productive/dominant/clutch player all in that year.... no im not being sarcastic, this is Lebron... only then would all haters be either 100% silent or go "Ok then damnit.. Lebron is best".... or wait even then there might be dispute considering he won it with Wade + Bosh... so... there will always be something to cherrypick out for hatredism

Only Michael Jordan was the undisputed best a specfic year.... or at least the closest one to be that than anbody else

Honorary mention: Shaq in 2000

[StateOfMind12]

You wield the word "intangibles" like it means something. I want something tangible. I can show you why MJ was the best player in his day. I can give you data, specific situations he succeeded in where his peers failed, etc. Typically when I see "killer instinct" "warrior" "intangibles" it means someone likes a guy more but is admitting the data leaves them without any supporting facts.

Not everything is a statistic in basketball and in the NBA. Intangibles does exist in basketball whether LeBron supporters believe it or not.

I'll explain how Kobe was the better leader though.

The Lakers were prepared mentally from the start. From the start regular season to the end of the post-season, the Lakers were prepared. That was one reason why the Lakers managed to dominate regular season (1st in West, 2nd in the league) and in the post-season (NBA champions). The Cavs on the other had not prepared mentally from the start, at least in the post-season that is. The Cavs were goofing off the entire post-season. They were doing stuff like the photo-oping, dancing around, etc.

The Cavs were never focused like the Lakers were and that goes to your leader. That's to Kobe's credit for keeping the Lakers prepared for battle on any given night and on any given playoff series and that is to LeBron's fault for not keeping the Cavs prepared for any given moment.

I also remember Kobe slapping Pau Gasol on the back of the head to man up and play better. Kobe was a lot harder on his teammates than Lebron was on his. It was similar to what MJ use to do to his teammates in the 90s, he would talk shit and do all sort of things to get them fired up and Kobe did the same in '09. LeBron didn't do anything close to that that season and he never has in his life. LeBron just isn't a leader.

Being a leader is not a statistic but if you bothered to read any of the stuff I have just said, you would know that Kobe was clearly the better leader of the two.

You say Kobe's D was better but every defensive comparison I can find has LBJ WAY ahead of Kobe.

I am not sure what this means but I am not so sure that is true either.

If you read what NugzHeat3 said...

For one, I thought he could've made more of an impact defensively. They assigned him to Alston and made him sag off of him and the thing is LeBron didn't make much of an impact on help defense. He didn't really bother Dwight though it was hard to do so because of how deep he was setting up but I don't remember him pressuring the ball to take time off the clock. Kobe's help defense on Dwight was a good bit better and often stripped him or forced a deflection though Kobe had better initial defenders.

Now I don't think it is necessarily his fault that Lebron was on Alston that goes Mike Brown for making that assignment. However, keep in mind that Alston was scored 20+ points twice in that series. Rafer Alston was by far their worst and most inconsistent offensive player on that team. The fact that he scored 20+ and the fact that he did it twice against LeBron is saying something.

It kind of makes no sense that Mike Brown assigned LeBron on Alston though. LeBron was suppose to be the free safety i.e. the guy that was suppose to be the ultimate help defender and double Dwight. Yet if any of you watched that series, you would know that the Cavs never even bothered to double Dwight at all and he just went off against Z and Varejao. It was Mike Brown's mistake more than anything.

Lebron didn't guard Hedo if any of you guys who are reading this watched the '09 ECF. Delonte West was the one that defended him and he did a terrific job on him. Hedo was making plays and setting up his teammates but he shot horribly in that series.

Kobe on the other hand, was playing great defense that season. People keep talking about how Kobe hasn't played defense since the Shaq years or what not. It is starting to get ridiculous how a supposed myth is becoming a myth itself.

Kobe has played excellent defense on every post-season with the exception of the 2011 post-season.

If you guys remember what Kobe did in the '09 playoffs, he was assigned to guard Carmelo Anthony because Melo was just going off against Trevor Ariza. Melo never shot over 45% for the rest of the series after Game 1. IIRC, Kobe was the player that Melo had the toughest time scoring against.

Kobe also played great defense in the '09 finals. He was a legit help defender unlike LeBron but that may go to better coaching and game planning more than anything. Like NugzHeat3 said already in this thread,

Kobe's help defense on Dwight was a good bit better and often stripped him or forced a deflection though Kobe had better initial defenders.

One thing I do remember about what Kobe did defensively in the '09 playoffs was how great he was at denying players the ball. He did a great job denying Rashard Lewis the ball, Carmelo Anthony the ball, Ron Artest the ball, etc., etc. He was just terrific defensively that season. I also remember he did great job defending LeBron in the regular season and it was on MLK day when he defended him. It was the first time Kobe and Lebron actually consistently defended each other for the entire game and Kobe won that battle.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...901190LAL.html

This is the game I am talking about....

Lebron scored 23 points and dished out for 4 assists but was 9 for 25 and had 6 turnovers.

Kobe scored 20 points and fished out for 12 assists and was 9 for 22 and had 5 turnovers.


Anyways, Kobe never got torched and lit up like LeBron did by Rafer Alston or by anybody in the Magic really. LeBron's defense in the '09 ECF was pretty pathetic especially for a runner up DPOY candidate.

I still have more of an explanation for why Kobe was better than LeBron but this was just my response to defend how Kobe was a better leader and defender than Lebron was in '08-'09.

[kizut1659]

I think Shaq in 2000 was the last undisputed best player. In 2001, a lot of people were already saying Kobe was the best. . .especially during the San Antonio playoff series untill Shaq's dominating performance against Philly. Some people were also stupidly calling Iverson the best. In 2002, it was Shaq v. Duncan and Kobe to a lesser degree In 2003, it was Duncan v. Kobe v. TMac v. Shaq. In 2004, it was Garnett v. Duncan and many people still though Kobe was the best and just being slowed by his legal problems. In 2005 it was Duncan by default but he already started declining. In 2006-2008, plurality thought it was Kobe but it was never undisputed, with Wade, LeBron, Dirk (in 2006 and 2007) and Paul (2008) also in the conversation. In 2008-2010 it was Kobe v. Lebron v. Wade to a lesser degree, with Durant also moving into conversation in 2010. In 2010, everyone was finally ready to annoint LeBron as undisputably the best but then he chocked in the playoffs. The same story repeated itself in 2011.

[NugzHeat3]

Not everything is a statistic in basketball and in the NBA. Intangibles does exist in basketball whether LeBron supporters believe it or not.

I'll explain how Kobe was the better leader though.

The Lakers were prepared mentally from the start. From the start regular season to the end of the post-season, the Lakers were prepared. That was one reason why the Lakers managed to dominate regular season (1st in West, 2nd in the league) and in the post-season (NBA champions). The Cavs on the other had not prepared mentally from the start, at least in the post-season that is. The Cavs were goofing off the entire post-season. They were doing stuff like the photo-oping, dancing around, etc.

The Cavs were never focused like the Lakers were and that goes to your leader. That's to Kobe's credit for keeping the Lakers prepared for battle on any given night and on any given playoff series and that is to LeBron's fault for not keeping the Cavs prepared for any given moment.

I also remember Kobe slapping Pau Gasol on the back of the head to man up and play better. Kobe was a lot harder on his teammates than Lebron was on his. It was similar to what MJ use to do to his teammates in the 90s, he would talk shit and do all sort of things to get them fired up and Kobe did the same in '09. LeBron didn't do anything close to that that season and he never has in his life. LeBron just isn't a leader.

Being a leader is not a statistic but if you bothered to read any of the stuff I have just said, you would know that Kobe was clearly the better leader of the two.


I am not sure what this means but I am not so sure that is true either.

If you read what NugzHeat3 said...


Now I don't think it is necessarily his fault that Lebron was on Alston that goes Mike Brown for making that assignment. However, keep in mind that Alston was scored 20+ points twice in that series. Rafer Alston was by far their worst and most inconsistent offensive player on that team. The fact that he scored 20+ and the fact that he did it twice against LeBron is saying something.

It kind of makes no sense that Mike Brown assigned LeBron on Alston though. LeBron was suppose to be the free safety i.e. the guy that was suppose to be the ultimate help defender and double Dwight. Yet if any of you watched that series, you would know that the Cavs never even bothered to double Dwight at all and he just went off against Z and Varejao. It was Mike Brown's mistake more than anything.

Lebron didn't guard Hedo if any of you guys who are reading this watched the '09 ECF. Delonte West was the one that defended him and he did a terrific job on him. Hedo was making plays and setting up his teammates but he shot horribly in that series.

Kobe on the other hand, was playing great defense that season. People keep talking about how Kobe hasn't played defense since the Shaq years or what not. It is starting to get ridiculous how a supposed myth is becoming a myth itself.

Kobe has played excellent defense on every post-season with the exception of the 2011 post-season.

If you guys remember what Kobe did in the '09 playoffs, he was assigned to guard Carmelo Anthony because Melo was just going off against Trevor Ariza. Melo never shot over 45% for the rest of the series after Game 1. IIRC, Kobe was the player that Melo had the toughest time scoring against.

Kobe also play great defense in the finals. He was a legit help defender unlike LeBron but that may go to better coaching and game planning more than anything. Like NugzHeat3 said already in this thread,


One thing I do remember about what Kobe did defensively in the '09 playoffs was how great he was at denying players the ball. He did a great job denying Rashard Lewis the ball, Carmelo Anthony the ball, Ron Artest the ball, etc., etc. He was just terrific defensively that season. I also remember he did great job defending LeBron in the regular season and it was on MLK day when he defended him. It was the first time Kobe and Lebron actually consistently defended each other for the entire game and Kobe won that battle.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...901190LAL.html

This is the game I am talking about....

Lebron scored 23 points and dished out for 4 assists but was 9 for 25 and had 6 turnovers.

Kobe scored 20 points and fished out for 12 assists and was 9 for 22 and had 5 turnovers.


Anyways, Kobe never got torched and lit up like LeBron did by Rafer Alston or by anybody in the Magic really. LeBron's defense in the '09 ECF was pretty pathetic especially for a runner up DPOY candidate.

I still have more of an explanation for why Kobe was better than LeBron but this was just my response to defend how Kobe was a better leader and defender than Lebron was in '08-'09.

I agree. Good job explaining your stance as well.

Only thing I disagree on is LeBron getting lit up by Alston. I think that's more strategic than anything else. Mike Brown lived with Alston making those shots with LeBron trying to help out which I don't think he was effective at. LeBron was basically playing off of him.

I remember Kobe did pretty good on Carmelo now that you brought it up. I think he played Melo better than Ariza did in certain occasions. He was more aggressive and better at ball-denial but Melo got doubled a good bit too. Good looking out.

[Pointguard]

2006 Heat championship was a fluke and a travesty, which is why noone proclaimed Wade the best player after the Heat won despite his finals performance and its not talked about that much nowadays.

Its generally conceded as one of the best finals perfomances ever. It was also known as one of the most dramatic. Where have you been? His year was great. He was one of the best finishers. He was super athletic. He was the only guy in recent times (at that time) that could go for 27/5.5/6.5 and shoot 495. You seen the way people reacted to Dirk this year and it had far less the dramatics. And the play was nowhere as near as dominant.

[kizut1659]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]

2006 Heat championship was a fluke and a travesty, which is why noone proclaimed Wade the best player after the Heat won despite his finals performance and its not talked about that much nowadays. [/quotes]
Its generally conceded as one of the best finals perfomances ever. It was also known as one of the most dramatic. Where have you been? His year was great. He was one of the best finishers. He was super athletic. He was the only guy in recent times (at that time) that could go for 27/5.5/6.5 and shoot 495. You seen the way people reacted to Dirk this year and it had far less the dramatics. And the play was nowhere as near as dominant.

I never denied that Wade played great well during the finals or that he is a great player - i acknowledged that much in my post. That does not mean, however, that Heat to deserved to win. Wade did play great BUT at the same time he DID get unfair help from the reffs. The whole "D-Whistle" moniker thats so often used on this site did not come out of nowhere. And because the series were so close and "dramatic" - the reffs phantom calls were the deciding factor.

[Pointguard]

I don't remember talk of that nature at all. I never remember anyone comparing Wade's help to Shaq's in LA. And I disagree that he had less help than Shaq did every year in LA, especially '99 or Shaq's first title in 2000.

What boards where you on? NBAwire and Hoopworld were lit up. People have short memories so they were referencing the last 3 years where Shaq unquestionably had more help, more experience, more time together, and more expectations. Wade was really amusing in that he resembled young MJ even more than Kobe did. There was plenty of discussions going on but no different than now.

I don't live in LA, in fact, I've never even been there. I've lived in NY my entire life.

Wow, that's a shocker. In your basketball heart you an LA kid tho. Way too much Kareem, Kobe and naming yourself ShaqAttack which is equal to saying Jersey smells better than NY and is a better place to live.

[StateOfMind12]

I agree. Good job explaining your stance as well.

Only thing I disagree on is LeBron getting lit up by Alston. I think that's more strategic than anything else. Mike Brown lived with Alston making those shots with LeBron trying to help out which I don't think he was effective at. LeBron was basically playing off of him.

I remember Kobe did pretty good on Carmelo now that you brought it up. I think he played Melo better than Ariza did in certain occasions. He was more aggressive and better at ball-denial but Melo got doubled a good bit too. Good looking out.

I think that is also true but I do think Lebron should be held responsible for some. I think Lebron deserves some flack for not contesting and closing out well because that seems to be a defensive weakness of his. I have always thought that Lebron was an overrated defender and I still do think he is currently. If you have watched the past 3 Heat games this season, you would see that Dorell Wright, Caron Butler, and even Danilo Gallinari drilled a bunch of jumpers against LeBron.

Kobe has always played great defense outside of '06 and '07 maybe when he was carrying the biggest offensive and scoring load in his career. '07 for sure Kobe was not consistent defensively but '06 I would say he was pretty good.

The only two seasons since the 2000s that Kobe didn't really play good defense in was '11 and '07. I don't think he played that much in '09-'10 after his injury though but I remember he pretty much shut down Russell Westbrook in the playoffs.

His defense was always consistent in the post-season though outside of 2011.

[La Frescobaldi]

The fact of Dr. J gets avoided by the way you asked the question. He ruled the ABA from the day he stepped on a court until he jacked his knee