Why Did the Bob McAdoo, Spencer Haywood Duo Fail with the Knicks?

[NewYorkNoPicks]

Wasn't alive to see it occur, but those two guys were at certain points in their careers putting up hall of fame numbers.

Somehow the Knicks acquired both of them and if im not mistaken still had Walt Clyde Frazier running the point.

How could that big 3 not work? What happened?

[Collie]

no defense, and Haywood was always overrated.

[Toizumi]

Two players with somewhat similar roles... and from what I've read and heard, Haywood was a bit of a blackhole and, as talented as he was, a lazy player as well.

[senelcoolidge]

Not exactly sure, but I know Haywood had drug problems.

[Rowe]

Wasn't alive to see it occur, but those two guys were at certain points in their careers putting up hall of fame numbers.

Somehow the Knicks acquired both of them and if im not mistaken still had Walt Clyde Frazier running the point.

How could that big 3 not work? What happened?

I believe it failed because Spencer Haywood was addicted to cocaine during that period of time.

Cocaine Addict + New York City in the 70's = You do the math

Spencer's career fizzled out right after that and he went on a downward spiral of drug abuse that led to his infamous blow-up on the Lakers where he was suspended indefinetly by Westphal and missed out on the NBA Finals.

His career is really a sad story when you think about it.

[L.Kizzle]

Those two guys were very similar. Mainly scorers. Build around Haywood or McAdoo and they needed an enforcer type like a Wes Unseld, Maurice Lucas, for that to have worked.

Don't forget Earl Monroe was still on that team. Actually, he was the only All-Sta during the three season stretch those four played together.

[jlauber]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_McAdoo

After this stellar beginning, McAdoo played [COLOR="DarkRed"]several injury-plagued seasons [/COLOR]for the New York Knicks, the Boston Celtics, the Detroit Pistons and the New Jersey Nets. Although these seasons were solid statistically, many analysts and fans felt that McAdoo's career was stagnating, mostly because the teams he played for were not title contenders. However, McAdoo enjoyed a much more memorable end to his career, winning two NBA titles with the Los Angeles Lakers in 1982 and 1985 as the team's sixth man and a teammate to Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and James Worthy. He finished his NBA career with the Philadelphia 76ers in the 1985–86 season.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Spencer Haywood seemed like he could be a cancer, he was on the '79-'80 Lakers who won the title. The Lakers biggest weakness had probably been the power forward position in previous years, so they added Spencer Haywood in addition to Jim Chones and later Mark Landsbeger. But Haywood was a problem all year, they eventually suspended him in the NBA finals and went on to win the championship.

When Haywood first came to the Knicks, according to Red Holzman, a lot of pressure on him to replace Dave DeBuscherre who was one of the great defensive players and Knicks as well as one of the most underrated forwards in NBA history and the man who took the Knicks to the next level and made them a championship contender who won in '70 and '73.

The Knicks were also experimenting with Spencer Haywood around that time because they were weak at that position. In fact, Wilt Chamberlain almost came back to play center for them.

In '77, the Haywood/McAdoo duo didn't even have much time together. Haywood was bothered by a leg injury for most of the season that eventually required surgery and limited him to 31 games. McAdoo had been traded to New York in early December after very public trade speculation that seemed to parallel Melo in the '10-'11 season. In the duos first 4 games together before injuries, they were 3-1 with their lone loss being by 1 point and Haywood was averaging 28.3 ppg while McAdoo was averaging 21.3 ppg.

So the '78 season is the real season to look at, although this was the year that the great coach Red Holzman temporarily stepped down and Willis Reed replaced him.

McAdoo put up fantastic numbers as usual finishing 3rd in scoring at 26.5 ppg, 8th in rebounding at 12.8 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 bpg and 1.3 spg on 52% shooting. The one blemish was 4.4 turnovers per game. Haywood returned to play in 67 games, but was far from the 20/10 seasons he had put up through his first 7 seasons(1 in the ABA when he led the league in scoring). Haywood averaged 13.7 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 1.1 bpg on 48.4% shooting as he was limited to 26 mpg due to another big man, Lonnie Shelton growing into a bigger in his second season. Shelton averaged 14.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.4 bpg and 1.3 spg on 51.4% shooting in 28 mpg.

The Knicks also had Earl Monroe on the perimeter as their second leading scorer behind McAdoo, although he was now 33 years old, but they had Jim Cleamons rounding out an extremely talented starting 5.

Here's an article from Sports Illustrated about this season. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3153/index.htm

So it seems like the '78 Knicks stars had problems with coach Willis Reed who was gone during the next season as Red Holzman returned. Willis was not afraid to criticize his stars, and he was also a rookie coach inexperienced with dealing with egos, Spencer Haywood seemed particularly sensitive.

McAdoo and Haywood also didn't seem to be a natural fit together, and nearly really filled the team's need for a big center. Haywood was used to being the man on his teams, and obviously wasn't anymore playing with a better player in Bob McAdoo.

As the Sports Illustrated article discusses, the Knicks tried to throw stars together as the great Knick teams faded instead of going through a true rebuilding process. They wanted big names to fill the seats, not young players developing for the future.

However, the stars didn't seem to have a problem with each other.

[QUOTE=Spencer Haywood]"Give us a chance, let it happen

[Xiao Yao You]

Haywood averaged 13.7 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 1.1 bpg on 48.4% shooting as he was limited to 26 mpg due to another big man, Lonnie Shelton growing into a bigger in his second season.

Looks like that's when the coke took it's toll.

the Knicks tried to throw stars together as the great Knick teams faded instead of going through a true rebuilding process. They wanted big names to fill the seats, not young players developing for the future.

Nothing has changed in NY!

[NewYorkNoPicks]

Spencer Haywood seemed like he could be a cancer, he was on the '79-'80 Lakers who won the title. The Lakers biggest weakness had probably been the power forward position in previous years, so they added Spencer Haywood in addition to Jim Chones and later Mark Landsbeger. But Haywood was a problem all year, they eventually suspended him in the NBA finals and went on to win the championship.

When Haywood first came to the Knicks, according to Red Holzman, a lot of pressure on him to replace Dave DeBuscherre who was one of the great defensive players and Knicks as well as one of the most underrated forwards in NBA history and the man who took the Knicks to the next level and made them a championship contender who won in '70 and '73.

The Knicks were also experimenting with Spencer Haywood around that time because they were weak at that position. In fact, Wilt Chamberlain almost came back to play center for them.

In '77, the Haywood/McAdoo duo didn't even have much time together. Haywood was bothered by a leg injury for most of the season that eventually required surgery and limited him to 31 games. McAdoo had been traded to New York in early December after very public trade speculation that seemed to parallel Melo in the '10-'11 season. In the duos first 4 games together before injuries, they were 3-1 with their lone loss being by 1 point and Haywood was averaging 28.3 ppg while McAdoo was averaging 21.3 ppg.

So the '78 season is the real season to look at, although this was the year that the great coach Red Holzman temporarily stepped down and Willis Reed replaced him.

McAdoo put up fantastic numbers as usual finishing 3rd in scoring at 26.5 ppg, 8th in rebounding at 12.8 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 bpg and 1.3 spg on 52% shooting. The one blemish was 4.4 turnovers per game. Haywood returned to play in 67 games, but was far from the 20/10 seasons he had put up through his first 7 seasons(1 in the ABA when he led the league in scoring). Haywood averaged 13.7 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 1.1 bpg on 48.4% shooting as he was limited to 26 mpg due to another big man, Lonnie Shelton growing into a bigger in his second season. Shelton averaged 14.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.4 bpg and 1.3 spg on 51.4% shooting in 28 mpg.

The Knicks also had Earl Monroe on the perimeter as their second leading scorer behind McAdoo, although he was now 33 years old, but they had Jim Cleamons rounding out an extremely talented starting 5.

Here's an article from Sports Illustrated about this season. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3153/index.htm

So it seems like the '78 Knicks stars had problems with coach Willis Reed who was gone during the next season as Red Holzman returned. Willis was not afraid to criticize his stars, and he was also a rookie coach inexperienced with dealing with egos, Spencer Haywood seemed particularly sensitive.

McAdoo and Haywood also didn't seem to be a natural fit together, and nearly really filled the team's need for a big center. Haywood was used to being the man on his teams, and obviously wasn't anymore playing with a better player in Bob McAdoo.

As the Sports Illustrated article discusses, the Knicks tried to throw stars together as the great Knick teams faded instead of going through a true rebuilding process. They wanted big names to fill the seats, not young players developing for the future.

However, the stars didn't seem to have a problem with each other.



This was from a game that McAdoo added 19 points and 22 rebounds in addition to Haywood's 22 and 13, and third big man Lonnie Shelton added 14 points and 10 rebounds. Which shows how overpowering that frontline could be as they outrebounded the Cavs 65-45 in that game. And 55 of the Knicks 96 points came from those 3 as well as 45 of their 65 rebounds. In fact, those 3 Knicks matched Cleveland on the boards.

McAdoo still seemed to be one of the game's most talented players. He opened the playoffs with a 41 point game on 17/25 shooting vs Cleveland in a 132-114 victory. That wasn't the only time McAdoo scored 40 that season and he seemed to have quite a few big games.

In the Knicks opening victory that McAdoo scored 41 in, Haywood also played well with 16 points, and Lonnie Shelton also played a key role and scored 14. In game 2, Haywood hit a game-winning 20 foot jumper to complete the 2 game sweep of the mini-series. Haywood's game-winner was his 27th point to tie him with McAdoo as the Knicks high scorer that game, and Shelton added 14 again.

But they were swept by the Sixers in the second round. Part of the reason for this was that McAdoo was in a shooting slump, he scored just 22 total points on 11/34 shooting in the first 2 games leading to blowouts of 40 and 19 points, respectively.





McAdoo picked up his scoring the final 2 games, but he didn't seem to dominate those games from what I've read. In fact, Sixers coach Billy Cunningham called Caldwell Jones the Sixers MVP of that series.

In addition to Jones and Steve Mix who got the defensive assignments on Bob McAdoo, the Sixers were loaded with talent. They had one of the game's exceptional talents in Julius Erving in addition to big scorers like World B. Free and Doug Collins as well as star big man George McGinnis. They had more talent in Darryl Dawkins, Joe Bryant and Henry Bibby.

So this team was about as stacked as you can get, they'd go on to lose to the eventual champion Bullets in 6 in the conference finals. But there's a reason why this Sixer team had been favored to win the title the previous season.

Despite the problems, the Knicks finished 43-39 and got to the second round of the playoffs. The main reasons they didn't get further were that their superstar and best player by far simply struggled, and they faced a team that was better and more talented than they were.

But it does seem that the Knicks were more comfortable by the end of the season. This team was blown up the next year as both McAdoo and Haywood were traded.

And JLauber, wikipedia says injury-plagued seasons with the Knicks, Celtics, Pistons and Nets. It doesn't refer to the '77 and '78 seasons specifically.

McAdoo did have a few nagging injuries in the '76-'77 season, but that's what they were, not career-altering injuries by any stretch, particularly at 25 years old.

McAdoo had played in 20 of the 24 Braves games while he was still on their team. He had a pulled groin muscle at the time of the trade which delayed his Knick debut by 2 games with 58 games remaining on the Knicks schedule at the time of the trade. He injured his knee in his 4th game with the Knicks, however the injury wasn't considered serious. He traveled with the team to Atlanta and returned 2 games later. He had another injury late in the season in March missing the March 26th and 27th games vs the Bullets. This also wasn't a serious injury and he returned on March 29th with a 40 point game vs the Kings But all they were was nagging injuries, and he played in 52 of the Knicks 58 games remaining at the time of the trade. Not only did he play in all of the remaining games after that last 2 game stretch, but his 40 point return wasn't his only 40 point game during that time, he had 41 points in the Knicks second to last game of the season.

In McAdoo's 52 games with the Knicks, he averaged 26.7 ppg and 12.7 rpg on 53.4 FG% in 39.1 mpg. As I mentioned, he put up the same numbers in '78 while playing in 79 games and averaging 40.3 mpg.

The real injuries started after that causing him to appear in just 60 games in a '79 season between the Knicks and Celtics, just 58 games in an '80 season with Detroit, and just 16 games in an '81 season split between the Pistons and Nets.

So lets not confuse '79-'81 with '77 and especially '78.

This was excellent man, i really appreciate the time and effort you put into that post. I wasnt around at the time but ive heard so much about McAdoo, he jst seemed like one of the most talented players of all time, it wouldve added alot to the knicks history had he continued his trend of great play with the club and retired a Knick.

By the way the most interesting thing was your mention of Wilt almost coming out of retirement to play for the Knicks. Could you tell me some more about that?

[jlauber]

Spencer Haywood seemed like he could be a cancer, he was on the '79-'80 Lakers who won the title. The Lakers biggest weakness had probably been the power forward position in previous years, so they added Spencer Haywood in addition to Jim Chones and later Mark Landsbeger. But Haywood was a problem all year, they eventually suspended him in the NBA finals and went on to win the championship.

When Haywood first came to the Knicks, according to Red Holzman, a lot of pressure on him to replace Dave DeBuscherre who was one of the great defensive players and Knicks as well as one of the most underrated forwards in NBA history and the man who took the Knicks to the next level and made them a championship contender who won in '70 and '73.

The Knicks were also experimenting with Spencer Haywood around that time because they were weak at that position. In fact, Wilt Chamberlain almost came back to play center for them.

In '77, the Haywood/McAdoo duo didn't even have much time together. Haywood was bothered by a leg injury for most of the season that eventually required surgery and limited him to 31 games. McAdoo had been traded to New York in early December after very public trade speculation that seemed to parallel Melo in the '10-'11 season. In the duos first 4 games together before injuries, they were 3-1 with their lone loss being by 1 point and Haywood was averaging 28.3 ppg while McAdoo was averaging 21.3 ppg.

So the '78 season is the real season to look at, although this was the year that the great coach Red Holzman temporarily stepped down and Willis Reed replaced him.

McAdoo put up fantastic numbers as usual finishing 3rd in scoring at 26.5 ppg, 8th in rebounding at 12.8 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 bpg and 1.3 spg on 52% shooting. The one blemish was 4.4 turnovers per game. Haywood returned to play in 67 games, but was far from the 20/10 seasons he had put up through his first 7 seasons(1 in the ABA when he led the league in scoring). Haywood averaged 13.7 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 1.1 bpg on 48.4% shooting as he was limited to 26 mpg due to another big man, Lonnie Shelton growing into a bigger in his second season. Shelton averaged 14.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.4 bpg and 1.3 spg on 51.4% shooting in 28 mpg.

The Knicks also had Earl Monroe on the perimeter as their second leading scorer behind McAdoo, although he was now 33 years old, but they had Jim Cleamons rounding out an extremely talented starting 5.

Here's an article from Sports Illustrated about this season. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3153/index.htm

So it seems like the '78 Knicks stars had problems with coach Willis Reed who was gone during the next season as Red Holzman returned. Willis was not afraid to criticize his stars, and he was also a rookie coach inexperienced with dealing with egos, Spencer Haywood seemed particularly sensitive.

McAdoo and Haywood also didn't seem to be a natural fit together, and nearly really filled the team's need for a big center. Haywood was used to being the man on his teams, and obviously wasn't anymore playing with a better player in Bob McAdoo.

As the Sports Illustrated article discusses, the Knicks tried to throw stars together as the great Knick teams faded instead of going through a true rebuilding process. They wanted big names to fill the seats, not young players developing for the future.

However, the stars didn't seem to have a problem with each other.



This was from a game that McAdoo added 19 points and 22 rebounds in addition to Haywood's 22 and 13, and third big man Lonnie Shelton added 14 points and 10 rebounds. Which shows how overpowering that frontline could be as they outrebounded the Cavs 65-45 in that game. And 55 of the Knicks 96 points came from those 3 as well as 45 of their 65 rebounds. In fact, those 3 Knicks matched Cleveland on the boards.

McAdoo still seemed to be one of the game's most talented players. He opened the playoffs with a 41 point game on 17/25 shooting vs Cleveland in a 132-114 victory. That wasn't the only time McAdoo scored 40 that season and he seemed to have quite a few big games.

In the Knicks opening victory that McAdoo scored 41 in, Haywood also played well with 16 points, and Lonnie Shelton also played a key role and scored 14. In game 2, Haywood hit a game-winning 20 foot jumper to complete the 2 game sweep of the mini-series. Haywood's game-winner was his 27th point to tie him with McAdoo as the Knicks high scorer that game, and Shelton added 14 again.

But they were swept by the Sixers in the second round. Part of the reason for this was that McAdoo was in a shooting slump, he scored just 22 total points on 11/34 shooting in the first 2 games leading to blowouts of 40 and 19 points, respectively.





McAdoo picked up his scoring the final 2 games, but he didn't seem to dominate those games from what I've read. In fact, Sixers coach Billy Cunningham called Caldwell Jones the Sixers MVP of that series.

In addition to Jones and Steve Mix who got the defensive assignments on Bob McAdoo, the Sixers were loaded with talent. They had one of the game's exceptional talents in Julius Erving in addition to big scorers like World B. Free and Doug Collins as well as star big man George McGinnis. They had more talent in Darryl Dawkins, Joe Bryant and Henry Bibby.

So this team was about as stacked as you can get, they'd go on to lose to the eventual champion Bullets in 6 in the conference finals. But there's a reason why this Sixer team had been favored to win the title the previous season.

Despite the problems, the Knicks finished 43-39 and got to the second round of the playoffs. The main reasons they didn't get further were that their superstar and best player by far simply struggled, and they faced a team that was better and more talented than they were.

But it does seem that the Knicks were more comfortable by the end of the season. This team was blown up the next year as both McAdoo and Haywood were traded.

And JLauber, wikipedia says injury-plagued seasons with the Knicks, Celtics, Pistons and Nets. It doesn't refer to the '77 and '78 seasons specifically.

McAdoo did have a few nagging injuries in the '76-'77 season, but that's what they were, not career-altering injuries by any stretch, particularly at 25 years old.

McAdoo had played in 20 of the 24 Braves games while he was still on their team. He had a pulled groin muscle at the time of the trade which delayed his Knick debut by 2 games with 58 games remaining on the Knicks schedule at the time of the trade. He injured his knee in his 4th game with the Knicks, however the injury wasn't considered serious. He traveled with the team to Atlanta and returned 2 games later. He had another injury late in the season in March missing the March 26th and 27th games vs the Bullets. This also wasn't a serious injury and he returned on March 29th with a 40 point game vs the Kings But all they were was nagging injuries, and he played in 52 of the Knicks 58 games remaining at the time of the trade. Not only did he play in all of the remaining games after that last 2 game stretch, but his 40 point return wasn't his only 40 point game during that time, he had 41 points in the Knicks second to last game of the season.

In McAdoo's 52 games with the Knicks, he averaged 26.7 ppg and 12.7 rpg on 53.4 FG% in 39.1 mpg. As I mentioned, he put up the same numbers in '78 while playing in 79 games and averaging 40.3 mpg.

The real injuries started after that causing him to appear in just 60 games in a '79 season between the Knicks and Celtics, just 58 games in an '80 season with Detroit, and just 16 games in an '81 season split between the Pistons and Nets.

So lets not confuse '79-'81 with '77 and especially '78.

[Rowe]

Spencer Haywood seemed like he could be a cancer, he was on the '79-'80 Lakers who won the title. The Lakers biggest weakness had probably been the power forward position in previous years, so they added Spencer Haywood in addition to Jim Chones and later Mark Landsbeger. But Haywood was a problem all year, they eventually suspended him in the NBA finals and went on to win the championship.

When Haywood first came to the Knicks, according to Red Holzman, a lot of pressure on him to replace Dave DeBuscherre who was one of the great defensive players and Knicks as well as one of the most underrated forwards in NBA history and the man who took the Knicks to the next level and made them a championship contender who won in '70 and '73.

The Knicks were also experimenting with Spencer Haywood around that time because they were weak at that position. In fact, Wilt Chamberlain almost came back to play center for them.

In '77, the Haywood/McAdoo duo didn't even have much time together. Haywood was bothered by a leg injury for most of the season that eventually required surgery and limited him to 31 games. McAdoo had been traded to New York in early December after very public trade speculation that seemed to parallel Melo in the '10-'11 season. In the duos first 4 games together before injuries, they were 3-1 with their lone loss being by 1 point and Haywood was averaging 28.3 ppg while McAdoo was averaging 21.3 ppg.

So the '78 season is the real season to look at, although this was the year that the great coach Red Holzman temporarily stepped down and Willis Reed replaced him.

McAdoo put up fantastic numbers as usual finishing 3rd in scoring at 26.5 ppg, 8th in rebounding at 12.8 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 bpg and 1.3 spg on 52% shooting. The one blemish was 4.4 turnovers per game. Haywood returned to play in 67 games, but was far from the 20/10 seasons he had put up through his first 7 seasons(1 in the ABA when he led the league in scoring). Haywood averaged 13.7 ppg, 6.6 rpg and 1.1 bpg on 48.4% shooting as he was limited to 26 mpg due to another big man, Lonnie Shelton growing into a bigger in his second season. Shelton averaged 14.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.4 bpg and 1.3 spg on 51.4% shooting in 28 mpg.

The Knicks also had Earl Monroe on the perimeter as their second leading scorer behind McAdoo, although he was now 33 years old, but they had Jim Cleamons rounding out an extremely talented starting 5.

Here's an article from Sports Illustrated about this season. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3153/index.htm

So it seems like the '78 Knicks stars had problems with coach Willis Reed who was gone during the next season as Red Holzman returned. Willis was not afraid to criticize his stars, and he was also a rookie coach inexperienced with dealing with egos, Spencer Haywood seemed particularly sensitive.

McAdoo and Haywood also didn't seem to be a natural fit together, and nearly really filled the team's need for a big center. Haywood was used to being the man on his teams, and obviously wasn't anymore playing with a better player in Bob McAdoo.

As the Sports Illustrated article discusses, the Knicks tried to throw stars together as the great Knick teams faded instead of going through a true rebuilding process. They wanted big names to fill the seats, not young players developing for the future.

However, the stars didn't seem to have a problem with each other.



This was from a game that McAdoo added 19 points and 22 rebounds in addition to Haywood's 22 and 13, and third big man Lonnie Shelton added 14 points and 10 rebounds. Which shows how overpowering that frontline could be as they outrebounded the Cavs 65-45 in that game. And 55 of the Knicks 96 points came from those 3 as well as 45 of their 65 rebounds. In fact, those 3 Knicks matched Cleveland on the boards.

McAdoo still seemed to be one of the game's most talented players. He opened the playoffs with a 41 point game on 17/25 shooting vs Cleveland in a 132-114 victory. That wasn't the only time McAdoo scored 40 that season and he seemed to have quite a few big games.

In the Knicks opening victory that McAdoo scored 41 in, Haywood also played well with 16 points, and Lonnie Shelton also played a key role and scored 14. In game 2, Haywood hit a game-winning 20 foot jumper to complete the 2 game sweep of the mini-series. Haywood's game-winner was his 27th point to tie him with McAdoo as the Knicks high scorer that game, and Shelton added 14 again.

But they were swept by the Sixers in the second round. Part of the reason for this was that McAdoo was in a shooting slump, he scored just 22 total points on 11/34 shooting in the first 2 games leading to blowouts of 40 and 19 points, respectively.





McAdoo picked up his scoring the final 2 games, but he didn't seem to dominate those games from what I've read. In fact, Sixers coach Billy Cunningham called Caldwell Jones the Sixers MVP of that series.

In addition to Jones and Steve Mix who got the defensive assignments on Bob McAdoo, the Sixers were loaded with talent. They had one of the game's exceptional talents in Julius Erving in addition to big scorers like World B. Free and Doug Collins as well as star big man George McGinnis. They had more talent in Darryl Dawkins, Joe Bryant and Henry Bibby.

So this team was about as stacked as you can get, they'd go on to lose to the eventual champion Bullets in 6 in the conference finals. But there's a reason why this Sixer team had been favored to win the title the previous season.

Despite the problems, the Knicks finished 43-39 and got to the second round of the playoffs. The main reasons they didn't get further were that their superstar and best player by far simply struggled, and they faced a team that was better and more talented than they were.

But it does seem that the Knicks were more comfortable by the end of the season. This team was blown up the next year as both McAdoo and Haywood were traded.

And JLauber, wikipedia says injury-plagued seasons with the Knicks, Celtics, Pistons and Nets. It doesn't refer to the '77 and '78 seasons specifically.

McAdoo did have a few nagging injuries in the '76-'77 season, but that's what they were, not career-altering injuries by any stretch, particularly at 25 years old.

McAdoo had played in 20 of the 24 Braves games while he was still on their team. He had a pulled groin muscle at the time of the trade which delayed his Knick debut by 2 games with 58 games remaining on the Knicks schedule at the time of the trade. He injured his knee in his 4th game with the Knicks, however the injury wasn't considered serious. He traveled with the team to Atlanta and returned 2 games later. He had another injury late in the season in March missing the March 26th and 27th games vs the Bullets. This also wasn't a serious injury and he returned on March 29th with a 40 point game vs the Kings But all they were was nagging injuries, and he played in 52 of the Knicks 58 games remaining at the time of the trade. Not only did he play in all of the remaining games after that last 2 game stretch, but his 40 point return wasn't his only 40 point game during that time, he had 41 points in the Knicks second to last game of the season.

In McAdoo's 52 games with the Knicks, he averaged 26.7 ppg and 12.7 rpg on 53.4 FG% in 39.1 mpg. As I mentioned, he put up the same numbers in '78 while playing in 79 games and averaging 40.3 mpg.

The real injuries started after that causing him to appear in just 60 games in a '79 season between the Knicks and Celtics, just 58 games in an '80 season with Detroit, and just 16 games in an '81 season split between the Pistons and Nets.

So lets not confuse '79-'81 with '77 and especially '78.

Sweet Jesus.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This was excellent man, i really appreciate the time and effort you put into that post. I wasnt around at the time but ive heard so much about McAdoo, he jst seemed like one of the most talented players of all time, it wouldve added alot to the knicks history had he continued his trend of great play with the club and retired a Knick.

Thanks, I wasn't old enough either to watch those teams, but am interested by older teams in the 60's and 70's, more since I started posting here, and have tried to learn what I can based on what game footage there is, articles written at the time, and books. I have both of Red Holzman's books(though his autobiography was more helpful for this topic) and find the '69-'74 Knicks to be one of the great teams because they won as a team, not by living and dying on the talent of 1 or 2 star players. They won with their innovative team defense with Holzman constantly stressing keep an eye on the ball and your man until his players did so instinctively. And if you look up and down those rosters, there's no shortage and good defensive players, some legendary ones such as Frazier and DeBuscherre. So I find it interesting to see the direction they took after the great teams were over.

The start of the Knicks transition to a great team was with Holzman as the chief scout, which allowed him to draft most of the teams key players he'd later coach and essentially build the type of team he wanted, which he acknowledged contributed greatly to his success. And of course, Holzman taking over as coach with the '67-'68 season in progress continued that. Finally, the Knicks trading Walt Bellamy for Dave DeBuscherre. Bellamy was talented, but he was slow, apparently not a very coachable player, a lazy player who often didn't play hard and not what you'd call a defensive-minded player. DeBuscherre on the other hand was one of the great Knicks and great defensive players as well as one of the more underrated forwards in NBA history. And he was not a guy whose effort was ever questioned based on what I've heard said about him. The Knicks had started off the season just 18-17, but went 36-11 the rest of the season with DeBuscherre. They'd eventually lose in 6 to the champion Celtics in the Eastern Division Finals. Once again proving that what made these Knick teams great was hard-working, unselfish defensive-oriented players, not just pure talent.

For example, Cazzie Russell was initially one of the Knicks more talented players when they initially made the transition for a middle of the pack team to a great won. He had gone from a player who averaged 18.3 ppg in 33 mpg on the '69 Knicks to a player who averaged 11.5 ppg in 20 mpg on the Knicks 1970 championship team. He'd average 9.2 ppg in 18.5 mpg in his final season in New York in 1971. The next season, he'd average a career high 21.4 ppg in 37 mpg with the Warriors, and would again top 20 ppg 2 years later at 20.5 in 31 mpg. Here's an excerpt from Phil Jackson's book "More Than A Game" where he talks about this.

Cazzie meanwhile was a weak defender whose strength was his ability to be an explosive scorer.

In reality, Cazzie was most effective coming off the bench at certain crucial stages where he could often turn a ball game around. The trouble was that because Cazzie was a fan favorite and also the second-highest paid player on the team, he couldn't accept playing behind Van Arsdale. (When Van Arsdale was eventually taken in an expansion draft by Phoenix, Cazzie was again shunted to the bench after Bill Bradley joined the team in December 1967. Four years later Cazzie wound up getting traded to San Francisco for Jerry Lucas.) Meanwhile, some of the players were advocates for Van Arsdale and some for Cazzie, and the controversy was extremely divisive.

This is not unlike what happened with Earl Monroe, except that Earl was a better player than Cazzie. Earl was one of the most talented players in the league, and he averaged over 20 points in each of his first 4 seasons with the Baltimore Bullets including a high of 25.8 ppg in '69. But in his first season with the Knicks, he dropped to just 11.4 ppg and played only 21 mpg. The following season, he'd average 15.5 ppg in 32 mpg on the Knicks '73 championship team, and 14 ppg in 29 mpg for the '74 team, the last year where they contended and really had the core of their great teams. After that season, Willis Reed, Dave DeBuscherre and Jerry Lucas all retired. Earl would again average over 20 ppg in the following 2 seasons showing a change in the Knicks. They also dropped to 40-42 in '75, and finally 38-44 in '76. That '76 season was the first time they missed the playoffs since 1966, and also Spencer Haywood's first season in New York.

This is another excerpt from Phil's book "More Than A Game" about the McAdoo/Haywood '78 season.

[QUOTE=Phil Jackson]We did have several top-notch players who survived the run

[Kiddlovesnets]

The only way for the Knicks to succeed is that NBA and ABA split.

[clipps]

Haywood and McAdoo were equivalent to players like Glen Rice, Elton Brand, Chris Bosh, Jerry Stackhouse, Chris Webber, etc. Great, awesome players that couldn't take their teams the next level as the #1 option, but if swallowed their prides and accepted lessar roles, they were vital assets to championship contenders. McAdoo couldnt lead the Braves anywhere as the main guy but was a valuable member of the Lakers as one of the role players. Glen Rice put up great numbers with Miami and Charlotte but not enough to go all the way but became extremely vital to the Lakers first of their 3 peat in 2000. Brand is not a great example because he never was on a championship contender, but he had bad luck with being on shit teams but i can see him as a valuable role player for teams like the Thunder, Lakers, Clippers, Bulls, etc. McAdoo and Haywood just didnt have "it". Not a bad thing. Doesnt mean they weren't great players. Magic, Bird, Russel, KAJ, had "it".