Where Does Manu Ginobili Rank All Time

[indiefan23]

Word..."routinely"

Wade dropped 27 (20 2nd half I believe). No one cares. Manu drops 26? Thread made. Wade 7pts in first half drew laughs, he's old, done etc. Manu had 2 single digit games vs OKC and no one cares. But he's on Wade level, better than Drexler. Riiiight

Dude makes thread claiming one thing, you start argument vs that thing * 10 factors of hyperbole. Exaggeration level: Gobb. Once a troll?

[Pointguard]

I
I said Manu is crafty because he out-thinks his opposition continuously and finds continually unique ways to win games that no one has ever seen before.

Please show me ONE move, much less continusously, that Manu ever did that no one has ever seen before?

He always seems to be thinking a play or two ahead.

I was going to say this was a typo but sometimes you get so beside yourself that you might really believe in some X-men/Avenger type stuff. Gino now thinks of plays before the one he is in finishes? If you are talking about a move before hand, which is the only way this statement can make sense, then why isn't his assist numbers up? Have you seen Chris Paul when he was in a playoff tear. Paul has guys scoring that didn't know they could score. Talent, skill, ability can have you score... craftiness and foresight, has other people scoring particurally non scorers. Manu is good at setting other people up but is far from great. And you have no other way of suggesting that he sees the play develop before it does. Magic would make Kurt Rambis a star, a twenty point scorer, on his birthday when his family came out to see him play. Kurt Rambis was devoid of offensive talent/skill/ability. Now that's crafty.

To suggest that Gin is in some way craftier or mentally adroit than Magic or Chris Paul basketball wise is straight up pure ludicris garbage. Manu never had the responsiblitily to have to figure out defenses for a full 40 minutes. Manu is very good at playing with controlled wreckless abandon at the right time. That is where his game is. He isn't somebody that should be considered a chess player on a checkers board by any means. He isn't consistent. Rarely played the average minutes of a very good player. Would be worse if he recieved the attention of a star. Never really produced like a star on any continuous basis. He had his moments but never had his years. The advantages of being the third wheel are numerous - defenses don't gear up for you, you don't get doubled, you don't carry a burden, you don't have to push the issue, etc.

[gpfanz]

Please show me ONE move, much less continusously, that Manu ever did that no one has ever seen before?

I was going to say this was a typo but sometimes you get so beside yourself that you might really believe in some X-men/Avenger type stuff. Gino now thinks of plays before the one he is in finishes? If you are talking about a move before hand, which is the only this statement can make sense, then why isn't his assist numbers up? Have you seen Chris Paul when he was in a playoff tear. Paul has guys scoring that didn't know they could score. Talent, skill, ability can have you score... craftiness and foresight, has other people scoring particurally non scorers. Manu is good at setting other people up but is far from great. And you have no other way of suggesting that he sees the play develop before it does. Magic would make Kurt Rambis a star, a twenty point scorer, on his birthday when his family came out to see him play. Kurt Rambis was devoid of offensive talent/skill/ability. Now that's crafty.

To suggest that Gin is in some way craftier or mentally adroit than Magic or Chris Paul basketball wise is straight up pure ludicris garbage. Manu never had the responsiblitily to have to figure out defenses for a full 40 minutes. Manu is very good at playing with controlled wreckless abandon at the right time. That is where his game is. He isn't somebody that should be considered a chess player on a checkers board by any means. He isn't consistent. Rarely played the average minutes of a very good player. Would be worse if he recieved the attention of a star. Never really produced like a star on any continuous basis. He had his moments but never had his years. The advantages of being the third wheel are numerous - defenses don't gear up for you, you don't get doubled, you don't carry a burden, you don't have to push the issue, etc.

U probably think Kobe/ AI > Manu zzz

[indiefan23]

Okay, so now I really do want to reply to you.

There are like....6.."wow" comments in there for reasons ranging from disbelief that you could be serious to not believing how greatly you misunderstood what I was saying.

No, I think I just flatly disagree with what you're saying. Someone thinking differently then you should not be wow, it should be, well it's sports. People disagree.

If you think me saying that I can cite specific examples of the basketball brilliance of players like Magic, Kidd, Stockton and so on means that I just "feeeeeeeeeeeel" a certian way without explanation or being able to give reasons....we might as well be speaking different languages.

No, you're just name dropping. Magic is a massive all time star. I've never said he wasn't brilliant. But the plethora of massive Ginobili moments and games don't shine less bright because he's not Magic Johnson. The Spurs just lost the WCF's with Manu pretty obviously being their best player and the guy they like to say is their MVP just not showing up. It's been this way for the past decade. TP scores lots and Manu closes teams out. Go re-watch the end of game 2 and it's beyond clear who the Spurs look to and who's team it is.

Yes, I feeeeellll it, but feelings are not invalid here. You can't measure craftiness so going on what you feel is all you've got. You criticize me for feeling it, but then you name drop Magic when all you've got to go on is feeling too. Putting up lots of per game stats is not crafty. It's just stats. Crafty is about how you get those numbers and Manu is right there in the club as one of the slickest players ever.

I give you examples...ask what you were thinking of to justify your claims that Manu makes better heady plays...and you tell me I just feeeeeeel a certian way without evidence when im the only side of this that gave any.

Thats just...going nowhere.

Well what, do you think Manu is NOT a crafty player? Do you really think that his game 1 performance was just a fluke and he has NOT been doing this for his entire career? Are you that ignorant a basketball fan? I know you're not so I really don't know what you're getting at. Manu is an AMAZING player who doesn't get all time superstar minutes but shows up in the clutch right there with them.

If player A plays 35 minutes (15 in the first half) and player B plays 20 minutes all in the second half, and they have a similar stat line for the night, which guy is better with the basketball in his hands?

You dropping guys like Magic and Kidd is merely making an invalid argument against my article KBlaze because you are using the name value of guys like Magic and their per game stats that drives their name value status against Manu's production. You're saying that player A played better basketball in that game. It's just not valid.

I'll leave it at this...

If you think a guy is underrated when every topic on him has several people calling him better than West, Kobe, Wade, Tmac, and Drexler...

We have different understandings of the word "underrated".

I'm pretty sure I defined why I felt he was under rated. And ever topic on Manu you seem to forget has some joker saying that maybe he's a top 400 all time player. It's quite possible that he's better then Drexler. But the fact is, as I've stated, Manu is not included on nearly any all time lists. He's beaten out by Bill Sharman. And my comparison to Dennis Johnson is not a knock, but if you have DJ stats today he would never make those lists the same as Manu never does.

Why is that? It's because as sports becomes more and more stats centric people form opinions on stats because people like you come in and try to say that counting Dennis Johnson's huge contribution that didn't show up in the stat sheet is not valid. Even though it's massive to the team winning so many of their games. But Dennis Johnson has a below average PER of 14.6 for his career, topped out at 17, and spent all his years from age 27-35 producing well below the average of 15, putting up a insanely low 12.8 in his prime at 29, and putting up a career low 11.5 at 34.

There are plenty of valid justifications for this, and I have 0 problem with DJ being considered an all time player. But the fact remains that how we view players has changed. And yes, I feeeelllll it. Before people used to use a whole lot more of what they saw with their eyes to evaluate the game. Newspapers would publish box scores and league leaders in only the most core stats. Even in the late 90's Scotti Pippen got credit for being amazing without having dominant statlines.

Today it's totally different and the Dennis Johnsons of the world (Read: Manu Ginobili) don't get the credit for what they bring to the table. Manu is his team's best player but they chant MVP for Tony Parker at the foul line. If Pippen played today his stature would be so significantly reduced. In the 90's he was considered the second best player in the league. Today there is just no chance of that. It's all based on how you feel and those ideas are valid. I think that's my point.

To sum up, you're just under rating Manu. Dude is an all time player and one of the most clutch players in the history of the league. He's not Fisher or Horry clutch either. He doesn't just hit big shots that other people make for him. He's superstar clutch. You give him the ball because he's your best pressure player and he creates play that lead to impossibly tough makes for himself, cuz he can make those shots, and easy baskets for others. Few players in NBA history know how to perform like this. Many MVP candidates don't know how to do it. Dude deserves props. If he played in the 80's he would get them. He's an all time player. QED.

[Kblaze8855]

Since you sent me a message alerting me to the fact that you replied im gonna assume you want to continue this discussion....so ill explain why I feel it wont go anywhere.

When I cite specific examples of incredibly smart basketball plays by the people I bring up...these things here:

And if you consider him beyond them in these things....I need to know why. Because when I say Magic is great at such things...I mean...rolling the ball the length of the floor to run the clock out without letting the Blazers foul to go to the finals. I mean pretending to be listening to Riley giveh im a play and then shooting a 30 foot bounce pass through traffic while the defense isnt ready.

If I mention Sam Cassell for this im thinking of his multiple times of throwing the ball off an opponent for a layup or jogging to the bench as if hes calling a timeout only to then sprint in for a layup.

And a few others ive mentioned like Kidd creating a technical foul on Mike Woodson which ive heard Dirk mention as one of the smartest things ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB8Kt...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnV8B...eature=related


I keep giving you example after example of the plays I mean...you respond with something about me just name dropping and giving you numbers when all im asking for is for you to give me plays you remember manu making that put him above the Magics, Kidd, DJs, and so on....

You you either cant or wont.

So why are we still having the discussion?

You just...feel Manu is smarter/more crafty. I...as a longtime basketball fan who has seen Manu play hundreds of times...dont remember plays that make him stand out above these people.

It seems you do. But you will not give me your reasoning beyond you just feeling like its true...then you tell me im doing the same when ive already given specific basketball plays as evidence while you have not.

That sound like something likely to produce good conversation?

It really feels like something is getting lost in translation or something.

[indiefan23]

Since you sent me a message alerting me to the fact that you replied im gonna assume you want to continue this discussion....so ill explain why I feel it wont go anywhere.

I figured you'd be interested in a response. No?

When I cite specific examples of incredibly smart basketball plays by the people I bring up...these things here:

That's the point. They all have incredibly smart plays. Listing them in a thread is a waste of time.

And if you consider him beyond them in these things....I need to know why. Because when I say Magic is great at such things...I mean...rolling the ball the length of the floor to run the clock out without letting the Blazers foul to go to the finals. I mean pretending to be listening to Riley giveh im a play and then shooting a 30 foot bounce pass through traffic while the defense isnt ready.

If I mention Sam Cassell for this im thinking of his multiple times of throwing the ball off an opponent for a layup or jogging to the bench as if hes calling a timeout only to then sprint in for a layup. "

And a few others ive mentioned like Kidd creating a technical foul on Mike Woodson which ive heard Dirk mention as one of the smartest things ever:

I keep giving you example after example of the plays I mean...you respond with something about me just name dropping and giving you numbers when all im asking for is for you to give me plays you remember manu making that put him above the Magics, Kidd, DJs, and so on....

You you either cant or wont.

So why are we still having the discussion?

:0 I believe I wrote a whole article based on why. It's awesome that Magic was a great player with loads of amazing plays.

You're not really making any points. Giving example after example only creates a pissing match. Oh wow, Magic pretended to call a time out and then sprinted down the court and scored. But Manu made a fake pass to one player and passed to another guy for an easy lay up.

What do you want? Should we create a database of plays, have a rank war over then, and then tally up the points so we can have some measurable Smart Factor? ;0

You just...feel Manu is smarter/more crafty. I...as a longtime basketball fan who has seen Manu play hundreds of times...dont remember plays that make him stand out above these people.

Brain fart in 3... 2... 1.. we all just... feel. My apologies if you don't remember how brilliant Manu was.

It seems you do. But you will not give me your reasoning beyond you just feeling like its true...then you tell me im doing the same when ive already given specific basketball plays as evidence while you have not.

Yes, because listing specific basketball plays is a monumentally meaningless exercise in wasting time. No, I'm not participating in something like that with you. It's foolish.

What I will say is that Manu plays in a state of constant reaction to whats happening around him, is constantly aware of his surroundings and thus makes very few mental mistakes while constantly punishing the other team for their mental mistakes. I haven't seen anyone but Bird play the same way.

He out-thinks players. It's not about flashy passes or gimmicky tricks like calling a fake time out. He's got things like that too but who really cares. I'm not going to scour you tube looking for some silly clip of him in bounding off the D because then you'll just find another clip.

It's about a simple pass fake on your way to the basket to freeze the shot blocker to get an easy lay in or that second of hesitation to create the inch of space he needs to get his shot off, or the way he attacks in different angles so that his defender and the shot blocker is always guessing. There isn't proof of these things which is what makes your demands for proof so silly.

Yea, I guess that all means nothing because Magic threw a ball into the air with 3 seconds left, which is bogus anyway, because they did foul Magic on that play... or cuz Jason Kidd used a slick trick... sorry if I feel my opinions but we all do this. I don't know, maybe you should go back to the race card. It's a bit of a cop out, what you're doing here.

[Lebron23]

No.1 in Argentina.

[Bigsmoke]

Word..."routinely"

Wade dropped 27 (20 2nd half I believe). No one cares. Manu drops 26? Thread made. Wade 7pts in first half drew laughs, he's old, done etc. Manu had 2 single digit games vs OKC and no one cares. But he's on Wade level, better than Drexler. Riiiight

Smoke DZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X96SR8sdf1U

[Kblaze8855]

As I said...if hes smarter than Magic, Kidd, and so on and you have no examples to support it....I dont need to continue talking to you about it. Not like im asking for a video or extensive plays. Im saying....when you give me a reason he plays smarter than Magic, Kidd, Stockton, and others ive mentioned...ill stop assuming you dont have any. you want to feel it..feel it. People feel a lot of things they cant defend.

You ether cant do so with this issue or choose not to. Either way...why do we need to keep talking about it? either you have something for me or you dont. If you dont...im gonna get back to this 80s bucks video I have in the works.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Still see no reason to put him on par with Ray.

[SCdac]

Still see no reason to put him on par with Ray.

Still, being in the conversation as a top 10-20 shooting guard of all time is quite the achievement... considering there's been hundreds and hundreds of SG's to play the game.

[indiefan23]

As I said...if hes smarter than Magic, Kidd, and so on and you have no examples to support it....I dont need to continue talking to you about it. Not like im asking for a video or extensive plays. Im saying....when you give me a reason he plays smarter than Magic, Kidd, Stockton, and others ive mentioned...ill stop assuming you dont have any.

Give examples of what? You gave examples of Magic throwing a ball into the air which proves nothing. ;0 What you are proposing is that you want to get into the basketball equivalent of two children in a school yard arguing over who's father is stronger. You've said your dad pushed a car out of a ditch BY HIMSELF!

And now you're accusing me of refusing to provide you with evidence of something 'like you have' when you've provided nothing that proves what your are saying. Not everything you can't prove is invalid and that's the whole point of what the article is about, that you've ignored. Sure Magic was a smart player but it's not backed up because you waxed poetic about a handful of the 100's of thousands of plays he was involved in over his career.

You ether cant do so with this issue or choose not to.

You've 'proven' nothing your self you know. ;0 Lordy. Manu is a highly intelligent player. Magic was great but give me a break. He was a freak athlete for his size who used his size and athleticism to dominate the NBA. He was not 'crafty' the same way Larry Bird was and it was evident from watching them play. Magic didn't have Bird game... it was very different. And Manu has some of that game that Bird has.

Either way...why do we need to keep talking about it? either you have something for me or you dont. If you dont...im gonna get back to this 80s bucks video I have in the works.

Why am I wishing to talk about basketball... on a basketball forum? Are you serious? ;0

Posting videos and examples of Manu's craftiness (which I've already done. There's a pretty obvious video with a 'play' button on it you can click that's full of plays) does not prove anything. Just because there isn't a stat to measure this on does not mean it's not true.

One example is Manu's incredible ability to draw fouls on both ends of the court. Call them flops if you want but dude is downright deceptive and constantly fools people into fouling. It's something tangible but I'm not going to post a Manu foul drawing mix because that's stupid. You can't determine greatness by comparing video highlights... everyone has great highlights.

You're behaving like a religious zealot who claims that since there isn't absolute proof of something there's no point in discussing it, neglecting the fact that they lack absolute proof for their own beliefs while they maintain they are superior simply because in a social group they are popular.

Oh, or would it all be different if I scoured youtube and found Manu pulling a gimmicky trick time out play? ;0 No, it wouldn't, you just want to argue but have nothing to go on because it's not a 'prove it' kind of debate when it comes to Manu, just like I said in the article. Ha, yea, no I guess I'm full of shit because you one time Magic threw the ball up into the air AFTER he got fouled and the refs decided the game for LA. Yep! I'm a pretty dumb guy... what was I thinking. SOrry! feeling. it's all so obvious now. lol

[indiefan23]

Still see no reason to put him on par with Ray.

Maybe maybe not, but IMHO he's been the second-first best player on the team of the decade that's never won less then 50 games, got 3 titles and made the WCF's what, 5, 6 times? And one year they didn't do well was mostly cuz he was hurt. That counts for a whole lot. I just think it's interesting because all the normal things you can use to measure these things don't really apply to Manu cuz he's so irregular, and that irregularity in the NBA is exactly what makes his so great.

Realistically too there's no reason to put him ahead of Ray Ray if you don't want to. You can give him Bill Sharman's place. ;0 But really, when you look at him and Ray they both have entirely different games, but it's much much closer then you think. Depending on the team/game both guys might be better to have in your 2 guard spot.

Still, being in the conversation as a top 10-20 shooting guard of all time is quite the achievement... considering there's been hundreds and hundreds of SG's to play the game.

Exactly!

[greymatter]

FOR ME top 20 but idiot people obsessed with stats underrate him so much and say scrubs like Monta Ellis and Joe Johnson are better

For me, 3rd best SG OF ALL TIME

So after Jordan and Bryant, he's better than DWade, Jerry West, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars?

[indiefan23]

So after Jordan and Bryant, he's better than DWade, Jerry West, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars?

to all those who disagreed with me in this thread and even went to the lengths of implying that I was being a racist, yea, you lose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSRk7qrwDNA

There's another one with english from the same game that is just jaw dropping as well.