Is Bruce Lee the greatest fighter who ever lived?

[andgar923]

Based on what? Anderson Silva trained with and respects Seagal, but that doesn't mean Seagal would beat the shit out of most pro fighters.

Because some of them said so?

[D-Wade316]

He is the GOAT.

/thread

[bmd]

I'm just going to say one more thing and it probably won't change anyone's mind but you have to remember that not only was Lee a physical specimen, yes bodybuilders looked up to him, for his great proportions. Proportions is half the sport of bodybuilding but the fact that Lee was an innovator. He possessed speed, quickness, power and was very limber, something that can't be found in any modern day "sport fighter."

Let's be clear here....Lee was a fighter and not a sport fighter. Put him in a cage and he will probably kill a guy because the dude had one of those brilliant minds and the flip side of a brilliant mind is a crazy mind.

Put Lee in a cage with a sport fighter with weapons and no holds barred. Bruce would kill the guy also.

You might say the sport fighter never trained in weapons but that's because he's not a real fighter. Bruce never intended to kill anyone but he still trained with many weapons. Being a fighter is a lifestyle and not some occupation. The man was a well trained machine.

Give Silva a weapon of choice minus a firearm and give Bruce a weapon of choice....that will explain who the real fighter is mind, body and soul.

Tell me who you got when sh!t hits the fan.....the guy that knows to use many weapons or some guy that fights for money?

One more thing......

In most legit dojos and traditional martial art dojos, not some MMA gym, there are weapons. Whether that be nunchuks, the bow, swords and knives you take classes to learn how to use each and everyone of those weapons. You are basically trained to defend and kill.

A guy walks into your dojo and you beat his ass so he proceeds to grab a weapon off the wall. You better grab one too and get ready to kill the guy. If you walk into a sport fighting dojo....you kick the guy's ass and he walks away.

Imagine letting me walk into your house and challenge you to a fight and you have knives and swords on the wall. I don't think it will sit too well for the homeowner.

Like I said, Lee is a fighter.

To answer this thread, yes, he's the greatest fighter.

I think the question the OP should be asking is, CAN HE BECOME A GOOD SPORT FIGHTER? Answer is yes....when the man trained himself in weaponry that far exceeds what a sport fighter is doing.

Look up videos and most people I know say they are training MMA but not many I know say they are training to use nunchuks and any other weapons from the Far East.

You are delusional beyond belief. You literally know nothing about martial arts.

It is literally as if you learned everything you know from watching movies.

[bmd]

One last parting shot.

Lee trained with most of the top martial artists of his era and they respected him. Again, just because he trained with them it doesn't mean that he was great himself, but they did respect him enough that they mentioned how great of a fighter he was. They could've easily dismissed him, they could've avoided his offers to train, but it was the opposite. He was actually surrounded by a who's who of the best of the best world class fighters of the time, tournament champions and legendary martial artists, he had to have some credibility.

Again... not saying that he was the best ever or that he could've been.

But I wouldn't put it past him to beat the shit out of most fighters pro or not.

It isn't true that Lee trained with "most of the top martial artists of his era". Not even close.

In fact, the only well-known martial artists I can think of who Lee trained with were Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis.

Joe Lewis literally says that Bruce Lee was not a real fighter... he was an actor who had interesting ideas about martial arts. He states when they'd train together, they would simply work on different techniques and drills... they'd never spar.

He would try to get Bruce to spar with him, but Bruce always refused.

Joe Lewis did say that Bruce helped him become a better fighter. But when asked about Bruce's own ability as a fighter:

‘Substitute the word “swimmer” for “fighter”,’ says Lewis. ‘This was the greatest swimmer of all time. He would a beat everybody else, ever.’

‘Was he?’ I ask. ‘How many times did he win the Olympics?’

“Aw, man, he didn’t have to do all that.” That’s what those JKD guys claim. “He was beyond all that,” they say.

‘Now here, this guy’s never competed, never been to a swim meet, we’ve never seen him really swim. We don’t even know how many swimming lessons he had, really.

Do you see what I mean?

‘Put another word in place of “fighter”, does all of it start to sound stupid or what?’

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=bmd]It isn't true that Lee trained with "most of the top martial artists of his era". Not even close.

In fact, the only well-known martial artists I can think of who Lee trained with were Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis.

Joe Lewis literally says that Bruce Lee was not a real fighter... he was an actor who had interesting ideas about martial arts. He states when they'd train together, they would simply work on different techniques and drills... they'd never spar.

He would try to get Bruce to spar with him, but Bruce always refused.

Joe Lewis did say that Bruce helped him become a better fighter. But when asked about Bruce's own ability as a fighter:

[DonDadda59]

Gene Lebell, Jim Kelly, Bob Wall,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNg8yls4UA

and there's others that have






I remember reading more quotes by other respected martial artists of the time, I'll post them when I find them.

To be fair, I think 50 Cent also won a gold gloves championship (unconfirmed) but no one in their right mind is going to say he is the greatest fighter ever because of that. And if there's any martial artist out there whose legend is even more outlandish than Lee's, it's his master Y/Ip Man. You ever see the movies about his 'life'?

[bmd]

Gene Lebell, Jim Kelly, Bob Wall,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNg8yls4UA

and there's others that have






I remember reading more quotes by other respected martial artists of the time, I'll post them when I find them.

We already talked about Gene Lebell.

And funny that you should mention Bob Wall. Bob Wall said in "Deadly Hands Magazine". When he says "a couple dozen of us.. he's talking about the martial artists working on the movie set of "Enter the Dragon":

Wall: "But Bruce felt threatened because he knew there were at least a couple dozen of us who were at least as fast or faster than him, and could hit as hard or harder. But see, he had this basic insecurity; he'd never been a world champion. He'd never competed. So here he was with real world champions and there was that difference. "Gee, I think I'm as good as you are, but you've done it and I haven't."

Deadly Hands: That is a very different view of Bruce Lee than many promulgate...

Wall: Bruce was a supreme egotist. Look. I liked Bruce. He and I were good friends. But I am also a realist about all my friends. Now, I really liked Bruce, in spite of his ego problem. I've never said this in an interview before because I felt- well, he's gone. Might as well say nice things. And I'm not saying anything bad about him now. It was just a matter of creativity. Bruce had this intense creativity but he was very, very insecure. He had no confidence. What I'm telling you are the facts. What has been printed is mostly mythical, wonderful stuff. He was just insecure. He'd never competed, though we all felt he was good enough to become a lightweight champion. At 136 pounds he sure wasn't going to take and beat any Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris. But in order to be a world champion you also have to lose. Name me a champion and I'll tell you who he lost to. We've ALL lost. But Bruce didn't want to have an official loss on his record.""



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Sounds a little different from all of the stories, doesn't it?

[bmd]

So two of the people he's trained with, Wall and Lewis, have basically said similar things about Bruce's fighting ability.

Gene LeBell has hinted at the same things. So has Chuck Norris.

[andgar923]

We already talked about Gene Lebell.

And funny that you should mention Bob Wall. Bob Wall said in "Deadly Hands Magazine". When he says "a couple dozen of us.. he's talking about the martial artists working on the movie set of "Enter the Dragon":

Wall: "But Bruce felt threatened because he knew there were at least a couple dozen of us who were at least as fast or faster than him, and could hit as hard or harder. But see, he had this basic insecurity; he'd never been a world champion. He'd never competed. So here he was with real world champions and there was that difference. "Gee, I think I'm as good as you are, but you've done it and I haven't."

Deadly Hands: That is a very different view of Bruce Lee than many promulgate...

Wall: Bruce was a supreme egotist. Look. I liked Bruce. He and I were good friends. But I am also a realist about all my friends. Now, I really liked Bruce, in spite of his ego problem. I've never said this in an interview before because I felt- well, he's gone. Might as well say nice things. And I'm not saying anything bad about him now. It was just a matter of creativity. Bruce had this intense creativity but he was very, very insecure. He had no confidence. What I'm telling you are the facts. What has been printed is mostly mythical, wonderful stuff. He was just insecure. [COLOR="Red"]He'd never competed, though we all felt he was good enough to become a lightweight champion.[/COLOR] At 136 pounds he sure wasn't going to take and beat any Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris. But in order to be a world champion you also have to lose. Name me a champion and I'll tell you who he lost to. We've ALL lost. But Bruce didn't want to have an official loss on his record.""



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Sounds a little different from all of the stories, doesn't it?

And that's all I've been saying the whole time.

Not that he was the best but that others respected him enough to say that he could've been one of the best.

Why is it hard for you to accept that?

[DonDadda59]

We already talked about Gene Lebell.

And funny that you should mention Bob Wall. Bob Wall said in "Deadly Hands Magazine". When he says "a couple dozen of us.. he's talking about the martial artists working on the movie set of "Enter the Dragon":

Wall: "But Bruce felt threatened because he knew there were at least a couple dozen of us who were at least as fast or faster than him, and could hit as hard or harder. But see, he had this basic insecurity; he'd never been a world champion. He'd never competed. So here he was with real world champions and there was that difference. "Gee, I think I'm as good as you are, but you've done it and I haven't."

Deadly Hands: That is a very different view of Bruce Lee than many promulgate...

Wall: Bruce was a supreme egotist. Look. I liked Bruce. He and I were good friends. But I am also a realist about all my friends. Now, I really liked Bruce, in spite of his ego problem. I've never said this in an interview before because I felt- well, he's gone. Might as well say nice things. And I'm not saying anything bad about him now. It was just a matter of creativity. Bruce had this intense creativity but he was very, very insecure. He had no confidence. What I'm telling you are the facts. What has been printed is mostly mythical, wonderful stuff. He was just insecure. He'd never competed, though we all felt he was good enough to become a lightweight champion. At 136 pounds he sure wasn't going to take and beat any Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris. But in order to be a world champion you also have to lose. Name me a champion and I'll tell you who he lost to. We've ALL lost. But Bruce didn't want to have an official loss on his record.""



------

Sounds a little different from all of the stories, doesn't it?

I think that was a huge part of why he never competed or even declined to spar with some of the more well established fighters- he wanted to preserve his myth. There was a lot of money in the idea that Lee was an unbeatable super specimen, having a loss on his record or being bested by an actual fighter would've tarnished that image as well as hurt his box office drawing ability and obviously ego. And let's be real- he wasn't going to beat a middleweight world champion like Chuck Norris or do anything except get manhandled in a Judo match against Gene LeBell. And that's not a knock on Bruce at all, just reality.

[bmd]

And that's all I've been saying the whole time.

Not that he was the best but that others respected him enough to say that he could've been one of the best.

Why is it hard for you to accept that?

Considering they've never seen him actually fight, I'm assuming they are talking about his physical attributes. They are saying if he actually trained to fight in tournaments, then he was probably good enough to become a champion. And he's talking about a Karate champion... not a full-contact fighter in any discipline.

You did say something similar to this, but then you also stated:

"But I wouldn't put it past him to beat the shit out of most fighters pro or not."


So which is it?

[Jackass18]

And that's all I've been saying the whole time.

Not that he was the best but that others respected him enough to say that he could've been one of the best.

Why is it hard for you to accept that?

It's mere speculation. The thread is about if he was the greatest fighter ever and not about what ifs, maybes and what might have beens. We could speculate that BJ Penn could have been the greatest fighter if he put the effort in, or speculate that some guy with Godly athletic gifts could have been the greatest fighter ever if he trained for it.

[bmd]

I think that was a huge part of why he never competed or even declined to spar with some of the more well established fighters- he wanted to preserve his myth. There was a lot of money in the idea that Lee was an unbeatable super specimen, having a loss on his record or being bested by an actual fighter would've tarnished that image as well as hurt his box office drawing ability and obviously ego. And let's be real- he wasn't going to beat a middleweight world champion like Chuck Norris or do anything except get manhandled in a Judo match against Gene LeBell. And that's not a knock on Bruce at all, just reality.

Truth.

[andgar923]

I think that was a huge part of why he never competed or even declined to spar with some of the more well established fighters- he wanted to preserve his myth. There was a lot of money in the idea that Lee was an unbeatable super specimen, having a loss on his record or being bested by an actual fighter would've tarnished that image as well as hurt his box office drawing ability and obviously ego. And let's be real- he wasn't going to beat a middleweight world champion like Chuck Norris or do anything except get manhandled in a Judo match against Gene LeBell. And that's not a knock on Bruce at all, just reality.

That's acceptable.

I also believe that he was insecure, people that are usually as brash and cocky as Lee are usually the most insecure. But that's also what drove him to train so hard and surround himself with the fighters he did.

But then again, there's those that have stated he could back up his claims.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The OP is deadset at dismissing anything and everything that sheds him in a positive light, yet highlighting everything and anything that fit his agenda.

A perfect example of this lies in the quote he posted. He highlights the part that mentions his insecurity, but fails to acknowledge the fact that some of these people legitimately respected him.

[andgar923]

It's mere speculation. The thread is about if he was the greatest fighter ever and not about what ifs, maybes and what might have beens. We could speculate that BJ Penn could have been the greatest fighter if he put the effort in, or speculate that some guy with Godly athletic gifts could have been the greatest fighter ever if he trained for it.

But I never said that he was or could've been.