Is Bruce Lee the greatest fighter who ever lived?

[RedBlackAttack]

I remember hearing about him although i never followed wrestling. He trained so hard that people thought he was nuts.

Who was that Russian heavyweight who dominated Greco Roman wrestling for so long? Cant remember his name but he would have been nasty in MMA.

That would be Alexander Karelin.

He was a monster, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDDXpjFtP0

[bmd]

of course he never trained MMA.....there was no modern MMA back when Lee first started.

I never said he was the first person to cross train...But he was one of the first guy's to cross train and document the value of each dicipline.

- Lee was a "Fighter" IMO , since he trained in Boxing , Kickboxing etc...too go along with train submission grappling. ( not sure why you think wrestling and boxing (Hodge) is fighting but slight Lee for Kickboxing and grappling)He created, before his untimely death, an approach to martial arts training and fighting that is followed, to a greater or lesser extent, by thousands of martial arts practitioners.
He was an innovator in the martial arts and some of his theories anticipated the "mma craze" of today.

could you say he was one of the most influencial "Martial Artists" ?? yes...

IMo you can also say he was a fighter...since he used his techniques in real life....ther was no modern MMA like we know today.

If some guy who trains BBJ twice a week can FIGHT "UFC" and be a Fighter...then LEE was most def a Fighter.


PS: Hodge may have destroyed LEE in a MMA fight.....but if Hodge had no clue about submission fighting then LEE could have very well choked him/joint manipulated him.

just as shown here when 5'9" 160lbs Hickson chokes a 220lbs top shelf wrestler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fngsgye5cg4

and again...this time Hickson fights a much larger opponent who had expierience wrestling and kickboxing....in fact IMO Zulu ( the opponent) would smash Hodge very easily....but the much smaller sub grappler (wich Bruce LEE trained and knew many chokes and joint manipulation) won..

yes the more I think about it....Lee knew Jujitsu.....easy victory against Hodge who would take him down ...yet get choked .

Okay... let me break this down piece by piece:

1. Lee was one of the first to cross-train and document the value of each discipline? Really? What is this then:

President Theodore Roosevelt, on March 5, 1904 he wrote his son Kermit:

My throat is a little sore, because once when one of them had a stranglehold I also got hold of his windpipe and thought I could perhaps choke him off before he could choke me. However, he got ahead.


A month later, he wrote his son Theodore Jr.:
I am very glad I have been doing this Japanese wrestling, but when I am through with it this time I am not at all sure I shall ever try it again

[tontoz]

Found him. Alexander Karelin

[dunksby]

Only morons would think Lee is the greatest fighter ever, dude was an actor who strove to popularize martial arts. He was a performer and a damn good one, he is probably the most influential martial artist of all time. His movies are the reason that action movies today mostly feature complex fighting scenes done by a fight choreographer. How would Matrix look like without Woo-ping's crazy choreography?

[rezznor]

huge lee fan here but GOAT fighter? come on.

besides, hasn't the early UFC shown us that you can't just throw random fighters in the ring together and expect a fair fight? size makes a huge difference.

Lee would certainly be competitive in his weight class, but I dunno about GOAT

[ILLsmak]

Realistically, Bruce Lee was an extremely talented fighter, who likes in those tales could take on 10 dudes at once. BUT. Fighting regular people is easy as an elite fighter. Today, fighting has advanced leaps and bounds, a top MMA fighter could probably take out Bruce Lee. Though in a street fight Bruce Lee was probably ruthless, ripping out peoples' eyeballs and shit.

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Edit: and we're actually gonna compare a diary about how fights went to diagrams and ideas on how to master fighting? All of that shit Bruce said about being "like water" or "don't think, feel", that shit is super deep even though it sounds cliche.

-Smak

[AlphaWolf24]

Okay... let me break this down piece by piece:

1. Lee was one of the first to cross-train and document the value of each discipline? Really? What is this then:

President Theodore Roosevelt, on March 5, 1904 he wrote his son Kermit:

My throat is a little sore, because once when one of them had a stranglehold I also got hold of his windpipe and thought I could perhaps choke him off before he could choke me. However, he got ahead.


A month later, he wrote his son Theodore Jr.:
I am very glad I have been doing this Japanese wrestling, but when I am through with it this time I am not at all sure I shall ever try it again… I find the wrestling a trifle too vehement for mere rest. My right ankle and left wrist and one thumb and both great toes are swollen sufficiently to more or less impair their usefulness, and I am well mottled with bruises elsewhere. Still I have made good progress, and since you have left they have taught me three new throws that are perfect corkers.


February 23, 1905 the President arranged a private match between Professor Yamashita and a middleweight catch-as-catch-can wrestler named Joseph Grant. In a letter to his son Kermit, Roosevelt described the outcome:

Grant did not know what to do except to put Yamashita on his back, and Yamashita was perfectly content to be on his back. Inside of a minute Yamashita had choked Grant, and inside of two minutes more he had got an elbow hold on him… [Still,] Grant in the actual wrestling and throwing was about as good as the Japanese, and he was so much stronger that he evidently hurt and wore out the little Japanese.

Jiu-jitsu is not of great value as a means of physical development, but that the possession of a knowledge of this system would inspire the individual with a degree of self-confidence; hence it is recommended that jiu-jitsu be incorporated in the [physical training] course with boxing and wrestling.


2. I counted Hodge as a fighter and not Lee because.... Hodge ACTUALLY FOUGHT. He was a boxer and wrestler. He actually fought in competition. Bruce Lee did not. He practiced in a gym and never fought. That is the difference.

3. Why do you think Bruce Lee was great at submission fighting? Gene LeBell (the guy who trained him in submission fighting), said Bruce Lee didn't train in it that much and wasn't very good. Bruce Lee was interested in it, and did train in it some, but he wasn't good at it because he didn't do it enough.

Danny Hodge was also a catch-wrestler. If you don't know what a catch-wrestler is, then you should look it up. Catch wrestling is all about submission holds.

The fact that you think Bruce Lee could have submitted Danny Hodge shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

#1. Again..I said LEE was one of the first...not the first.

recap: Lee was one of the First artists to use mulitiple diciplines...not the first.

#2. You claim Hodge is a real Fighter becuase he boxed and was an olympic wrestler...yet you claim LEE is not because he used many disiplines and never had PRO Fights.

- so I have 1 question...was Royce Gracie a "real Fighter" before UFC 1????????? simple yes or no answer will do.

Royce faught a pro boxer who was ranked .....in UFC 1.....and beat him...(before Royce had any "real fights ..using your criteria) Royce Gracie was not a Fighter...all he did was practice in a Gym just as LEE did.



#3. LEE knew some submission grappling.....
was Hodge and expert in Catch can wrestling?..who knows....catch wrestling was used along with freestyle wrestling in Japan....it has basic subs from leg locks to shoulder locks....it does not really focus on fighting from your back....as Judo and Jujitsu does.

if Lee knew simple chokes from his back and posyure control...no doubt he could sub Hodge.

your lame attempt to use Catch Can wrestling is silly.....and your blatant slighting of Bruce Lee claiming he wasn't a real "fighter" because he wasn't putting pillows on his hands and boxing professionally shows most likely you are a TUF Newb.



























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[AlphaWolf24]

True dat.

Erensto Hoost lost to Bob Sapp.....kinda hard to be the greatest when you lose to Bob Sapp

[AlphaWolf24]

I remember hearing about him although i never followed wrestling. He trained so hard that people thought he was nuts.

Who was that Russian heavyweight who dominated Greco Roman wrestling for so long? Cant remember his name but he would have been nasty in MMA.

That would be Alexander Karelin.

He was a monster, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDDXpjFtP0

IMO he would be a middle tier MMA fighter ..

He gassed in his only "Mixed style fight " vs a less then stellar opponent...

he pretty much just layed on top....and looked like he couln't take a punch at all (think Brock Lesnar)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEQqUmPgdq4

any HW with TD defense and average striking would wreck him.....Overeem would make him his *****.

[dunksby]

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Edit: and we're actually gonna compare a diary about how fights went to diagrams and ideas on how to master fighting? All of that shit Bruce said about being "like water" or "don't think, feel", that shit is super deep even though it sounds cliche.

-Smak

Eastern fighting schools pride themselves in trying to improve their minds and souls through practice Zen and Martial Arts. Martial arts is another form of being in sync with nature that is why different fighting styles are supposedly imitations of different creatures' fighting styles as they were invented by Shaolin monks who spent great deal of time meditating and observing nature at work in order to gain enlightenment. Zen greatly influenced the Chinese after it was introduced to them by an Indian monk and they incorporated it to their practice of Martial Arts.

[bmd]

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Edit: and we're actually gonna compare a diary about how fights went to diagrams and ideas on how to master fighting? All of that shit Bruce said about being "like water" or "don't think, feel", that shit is super deep even though it sounds cliche.

-Smak

This is what I am talking about. There are only "stories".

What in your right mind makes you think he'd "beat all of those MMA guys"?

[DonDadda59]

This is what I am talking about. There are only "stories".

What in your right mind makes you think he'd "beat all of those MMA guys"?

This guy has a point. If all of Steven Seagal's tall tales were accepted as fact, he'd gone down as the biggest bad ass that ever walked the Earth.

Lee was an actor and martial artist. His fighting record is virtually nonexistent outside of 'stories' and anecdotes.

[bmd]

#1. Again..I said LEE was one of the first...not the first.

recap: Lee was one of the First artists to use mulitiple diciplines...not the first.

#2. You claim Hodge is a real Fighter becuase he boxed and was an olympic wrestler...yet you claim LEE is not because he used many disiplines and never had PRO Fights.

- so I have 1 question...was Royce Gracie a "real Fighter" before UFC 1????????? simple yes or no answer will do.

Royce faught a pro boxer who was ranked .....in UFC 1.....and beat him...(before Royce had any "real fights ..using your criteria) Royce Gracie was not a Fighter...all he did was practice in a Gym just as LEE did.



#3. LEE knew some submission grappling.....
was Hodge and expert in Catch can wrestling?..who knows....catch wrestling was used along with freestyle wrestling in Japan....it has basic subs from leg locks to shoulder locks....it does not really focus on fighting from your back....as Judo and Jujitsu does.

if Lee knew simple chokes from his back and posyure control...no doubt he could sub Hodge.

your lame attempt to use Catch Can wrestling is silly.....and your blatant slighting of Bruce Lee claiming he wasn't a real "fighter" because he wasn't putting pillows on his hands and boxing professionally shows most likely you are a TUF Newb.



























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1. Lee wasn't even close to the first. Why do you keep saying that? I posted something Teddy Roosevelt said from the turn of the century. Do you honestly think there wasn't thousands of others that didn't have similar thoughts as Teddy Roosevelt from the year 1900 until the 1960's when Bruce Lee was a young adult?

2. Oh, Royce Gracie never had any fights before UFC 1?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ZDKQHBOO8

3. Lee did know SOME submission grappling... but you are comparing him to Danny Hodge, a silver medalist Olympic wrestler who also knew submission grappling.

Catch wrestling is legit. Ever heard of Sakuraba or Josh Barnett?

[Jackass18]

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Obviously if he jack "some guy" in the face, then he can clearly beat actual proven fighters! After all, you only need a "fighter's mind" and "fighter's body"!

[RedBlackAttack]

This guy has a point. If all of Steven Seagal's tall tales were accepted as fact, he'd gone down as the biggest bad ass that ever walked the Earth.

Lee was an actor and martial artist. His fighting record is virtually nonexistent outside of 'stories' and anecdotes.