Is Bruce Lee the greatest fighter who ever lived?

[iamgine]

Bruce Lee

[G-Funk]

[Lebron23]

Trovador Ramos Sr. beat him in a sparring match. I think Gene Lebell also beat Bruce Lee.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Probably not. Still love Game of Death and Enter the Dragon

[SilkkTheShocker]

Prime Tyson would have handed Ali his ass.

[bmd]

[QUOTE=iamgine]Bruce Lee

[RedBlackAttack]

Prime Tyson would have handed Ali his ass.

Ali was not the greatest fighter to ever live. Not the greatest boxer, either (or even close, really). But he was better than Tyson, who is hands down the most overrated athlete in modern sports history.

[bmd]

Ali was not the greatest fighter to ever live. Not the greatest boxer, either (or even close, really). But he was better than Tyson, who is hands down the most overrated athlete in modern sports history.

How is he overrated?

[RedBlackAttack]

How is he overrated?

How is he not? People compare him to some of the greatest heavyweights to ever live and he was 3rd or 4th best of his own era. What were his most consequential wins? An overblown light heavyweight in Michael Spinks? A 40+ year old Larry Holmes? Trevor Berbick?

People love him because he spent his early years knocking guys senseless and that is really what the casual boxing fan wants to see. He was an intimidating figure with a ferocious style... But he was also a mental midget who never beat another truly great fighter in their prime and was thoroughly dominated in the biggest fights of his career.

Of course, I'm to believe that he peaked at 20 and that he was "never the same" after Cus died... Even though Cus died a lot earlier on in his professional career than most people realize. He gets more excuses and passes than any athlete ever.

The myth of Tyson is almost as bad as the myth of Lee... Except he, ya know... Actually competed as a fighter.

[bmd]

How is he not? People compare him to some of the greatest heavyweights to ever live and he was 3rd or 4th best of his own era. What were his most consequential wins? An overblown light heavyweight in Michael Spinks? A 40+ year old Larry Holmes? Trevor Berbick?

People love him because he spent his early years knocking guys senseless and that is really what the casual boxing fan wants to see. He was an intimidating figure with a ferocious style... But he was also a mental midget who never beat another truly great fighter in their prime and was thoroughly dominated in the biggest fights of his career.

Of course, I'm to believe that he peaked at 20 and that he was "never the same" after Cus died... Even though Cus died a lot earlier on in his professional career than most people realize. He gets more excuses and passes than any athlete ever.

The myth of Tyson is almost as bad as the myth of Lee... Except he, ya know... Actually competed as a fighter.

Tyson started to not do as well after Rooney left. Then he was in jail for a few years.

Tyson never reached his full potential.

I think he is a little overrated... I think most people when talking about Tyson think "what if".

And I don't know enough about boxing during that time to say who he beat, but he defended his belts in 3 out of the 4 boxing organizations like 9 times in a row.

How would he not be fighting the best guys if he had almost all of the belts in the main organizations at his weight?

[RedBlackAttack]

Tyson started to not do as well after Rooney left. Then he was in jail for a few years.

Tyson never reached his full potential.

I think he is a little overrated... I think most people when talking about Tyson think "what if".

And I don't know enough about boxing during that time to say who he beat, but he defended his belts in 3 out of the 4 boxing organizations like 9 times in a row.

How would he not be fighting the best guys if he had almost all of the belts in the main organizations at his weight?

The greatest challenge to Tyson well prior to his being slaughtered by Buster Douglas was Evander Holyfield. That was the fight that everyone wanted to see pretty much the moment Holyfield moved to heavyweight in 1988... And even prior to his moving from cruiserweight.

Fact is, the heavyweight division that Tyson took by storm in the mid-80s was awful. The belts were scattered around and there wasn't a dominant fighter of the bunch.

I don't think that beating up the likes of Berbick, Tucker, Spinks and Bruno qualify as the type of wins that should elevate him to the kind of level that people like to discuss him in.

Keep in mind that I'm a guy who was front and center cheering for Tyson during his heyday. Right up until the Lewis fight, I defended him when necessary. But there came a point where the way people talk about him didn't match with what he had actually done and proven as a fighter.

Yes, there was a time in the 1980s where he looked like a surefire all-time great heavyweight, but things took a sharp turn downwards and that also coincided with him fighting a better brand of fighter and the HW division becoming much more difficult.

He ranks below both Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield for sure and a strong argument could be made that Riddick Bowe is also above him from that era of fighters. Yet, we have posts saying that he would smash Ali if they fought. Possibly Ali's greatest attribute was his mind. He would have Tyson beaten before the fight even started, much the way he did to Sonny Liston (who was also a better fighter than Tyson).

It is just so odd to me the way that people make excuses for this guy. He lost his mentor. He left his best trainer. He was over-the-hill at 22. His jailtime killed his career.

Could it be that maybe he just wasn't as good as people believe?

[bmd]

The greatest challenge to Tyson well prior to his being slaughtered by Buster Douglas was Evander Holyfield. That was the fight that everyone wanted to see pretty much the moment Holyfield moved to heavyweight in 1988... And even prior to his moving from cruiserweight.

Fact is, the heavyweight division that Tyson took by storm in the mid-80s was awful. The belts were scattered around and there wasn't a dominant fighter of the bunch.

I don't think that beating up the likes of Berbick, Tucker, Spinks and Bruno qualify as the type of wins that should elevate him to the kind of level that people like to discuss him in.

Keep in mind that I'm a guy who was front and center cheering for Tyson during his heyday. Right up until the Lewis fight, I defended him when necessary. But there came a point where the way people talk about him didn't match with what he had actually done and proven as a fighter.

He ranks below both Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield for sure and a strong argument could be made that Riddick Bowe is also above him from that era of fighters. Yet, we have posts saying that he would smash Ali if they fought.

It is just so odd to me the way that people make excuses for this guy. He lost his mentor. He left his best trainer. He was over-the-hill at 22. His jailtime killed his career.

Could it be that maybe he just wasn't as good as people believe?

It could be that he wasn't as good as people believe... but it also could be those things really could have affected him greatly. We really don't know and it is up for interpretation.

Holyfield never fought Tyson before all the stuff Tyson went through.

As far as accomplishments, Holyfield accomplished more.

But if we are talking about pure boxing skills before Tyson went through all that stuff, we really don't know who would have won. It's up for debate.

Tyson didn't have a "prime" like most fighters have. Tyson came up FAST when he was too young, and got into trouble. He never truly reached his potential.

[Beebo]

Sugar ray robinson says hi

[RedBlackAttack]

Sugar ray robinson says hi

YES.

The true GOAT boxer. No hype. No "what ifs."

Just this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VLWBVpL23k

73-1-1 at the height of his career, he beat 18 hall of fame fighters in his career, most of whom outweighed him by a wide margin, as he was a natural lightweight fighting huge middleweights and even light heavyweights.

[SilkkTheShocker]

The greatest challenge to Tyson well prior to his being slaughtered by Buster Douglas was Evander Holyfield. That was the fight that everyone wanted to see pretty much the moment Holyfield moved to heavyweight in 1988... And even prior to his moving from cruiserweight.

Fact is, the heavyweight division that Tyson took by storm in the mid-80s was awful. The belts were scattered around and there wasn't a dominant fighter of the bunch.

I don't think that beating up the likes of Berbick, Tucker, Spinks and Bruno qualify as the type of wins that should elevate him to the kind of level that people like to discuss him in.

Keep in mind that I'm a guy who was front and center cheering for Tyson during his heyday. Right up until the Lewis fight, I defended him when necessary. But there came a point where the way people talk about him didn't match with what he had actually done and proven as a fighter.

Yes, there was a time in the 1980s where he looked like a surefire all-time great heavyweight, but things took a sharp turn downwards and that also coincided with him fighting a better brand of fighter and the HW division becoming much more difficult.

He ranks below both Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield for sure and a strong argument could be made that Riddick Bowe is also above him from that era of fighters. Yet, we have posts saying that he would smash Ali if they fought. Possibly Ali's greatest attribute was his mind. He would have Tyson beaten before the fight even started, much the way he did to Sonny Liston (who was also a better fighter than Tyson).

It is just so odd to me the way that people make excuses for this guy. He lost his mentor. He left his best trainer. He was over-the-hill at 22. His jailtime killed his career.

Could it be that maybe he just wasn't as good as people believe?

Love Riddick Bowe. Dude never gets the respect he deserves. My favorite boxer ever.